While Nichol’s works from what’s she’s experienced in the Caribbean, her poems I feel still hold a lot of fun and interesting stories for all children. I loved “Banana Man” personally. Lots of kids love bananas and this is a silly way to talk about it, referring to bunches of bananas as hands. Here the rhyming isn’t a regular line by line pattern. The rhymes themselves are repeating still and they show another sort of rhyming instead of the classic ABAB or AABB styles. The language is more relaxed, less formal and as many of Nichol’s poems, it’s almost a sort of slang that can be relaxed into. Kids can have fun reading these! For a fun activity after, you can discuss favorite fruits and maybe how different fruit looks like different body parts or different things in general.
See mt comment above on the language/culture thing, but cute idea with this poem.
Any (brief) idea for a poetry month exhibit in the children's section of a library?
Thursday, May 13, 2010
Something I found significant an interesting about Clifton’s poetry is that she kept to one main character, Everett Anderson. While none of the previous poetry we touched on here made specific mention of race, these ones make specific mention of Everett and his family being African American. I think this adds to the character and gives us as teachers and parents something significantly different from the heavily British lot we had just been reviewing. The introduction says that Clifton wishes to express the “pain and fear experienced by a young African American child” but at least in these excerpts, I feel these poems could relate to many children regardless of race.
“Tuesday All Day Rain” is a silly poem about Everett Anderson leaving his umbrella at home instead of taking it out to protect himself from the rain because he doesn’t want to lose it. The idea is so child-like, the best way to keep yourself from losing your umbrella is to simply leave it at home. The rhyming here is a little different; the lines are choppy, but this adds to the flow of things, the quick movement of the words.
We see it’s carried into the next stanza at times instead of all being self contained in one stanza and merely carried over into the next one. I think this pulls the poem together nicely and makes you feel like you need to finish the poem and say it all together. Of course, this leads you to think I normally don’t read poems all together as one piece, which no, I don’t always. Kids can talk about times they’ve left their things at home instead of taking them with them and what happened in the end.
Good reading of this poem, and nice realization of your own tendencies when reading poetry. There are other collections that focus on one character. On the race thing, coudn't these poems also be used, like the Mora (missing these) and Nichols, to introduce kids to other cultures?
“Tuesday All Day Rain” is a silly poem about Everett Anderson leaving his umbrella at home instead of taking it out to protect himself from the rain because he doesn’t want to lose it. The idea is so child-like, the best way to keep yourself from losing your umbrella is to simply leave it at home. The rhyming here is a little different; the lines are choppy, but this adds to the flow of things, the quick movement of the words.
“Rain or shine,
he doesn’t whine
about ‘catching cold’ or
‘summer showers.’
Sad or merry
he doesn’t carry
the thing around
for hours and hours”
We see it’s carried into the next stanza at times instead of all being self contained in one stanza and merely carried over into the next one. I think this pulls the poem together nicely and makes you feel like you need to finish the poem and say it all together. Of course, this leads you to think I normally don’t read poems all together as one piece, which no, I don’t always. Kids can talk about times they’ve left their things at home instead of taking them with them and what happened in the end.
Good reading of this poem, and nice realization of your own tendencies when reading poetry. There are other collections that focus on one character. On the race thing, coudn't these poems also be used, like the Mora (missing these) and Nichols, to introduce kids to other cultures?
These poems are all rather interesting. Something I find might be a hindrance at times is when poetry comes off as too British and too old fashioned. This doesn’t hurt the sound or the meaning, but it makes it unrelatable to the children that might be learning about it. This is just my feeling though, I feel like more updated writing would work better in schools and teachings today. While these are more up dated than others, I feel that these are still a bit too British. “Mrs. McPhee” I think would be a fun read for kids. This woman eats duckling, ducklings! That’s scandalous to a child, who would likely never eat a duckling. The women’s transformation is fun though, like a punishment for eating poor little baby ducks. The poem even plays with the sounds, especially at the end, “Said Mrs. Mac, Mrs. Quack,//Mrs. MacPhee.” It’s a fun poem and for a learning exercise, perhaps they could try to think up silly or not silly names that rhyme with duck sounds, like Mark Bark or something like that. With a more fun thing, maybe try cutting out paper feathers to glue to a cape so mommy or teacher could become Mrs. or Mr. MacPhee.”
Cute ideas here, but isn't Causley's language a bit more accessible than, say, De La Mare's?
Cute ideas here, but isn't Causley's language a bit more accessible than, say, De La Mare's?
De La Mare brought us another story previously, with his telling of a vane Little Red Riding Hood. Some of his other poems are also sort of dark, which shows a similar voice to what we saw with his previous story. I found his poetry sort of dull, I feel like it lost something in time. The rhyming does flow still, but many of the topics I feel kids would have more of a fun time just saying than actually knowing exactly what it’s about. “The Penny Owing” almost sounds like some sort of reaper or ghost coming with a final penny for blind Tam. Beggars are something we have today as well, so they could understand this enough, but I don’t think they’d see the same meaning as I do, which is fine still. Some of the words aren’t common ones for children, like “abide” and “grudged” so it can work for extending vocabulary as well. Again, maybe this could also introduce children to the idea of money and counting change, suggesting they save their pennies and such.
Aren't some of his poems a little lighter? Good, if general, on the vocabulary benefits and differing interpretations.
Aren't some of his poems a little lighter? Good, if general, on the vocabulary benefits and differing interpretations.
For Stevenson, I enjoyed his “Bed in Summer” because I feel that the topic is still very relatable to kids and people today. Many of us, especially children understand what it’s like to go to bed in the summer when it’s still light out when we would rather be outside playing. It’s a fun and easy poem that gives you the impression of a child bored in bed trying to force them to sleep, but not really succeeding at it. Anyone can relate. The flow of the language adds to the whimsy, with each stanza having rhyming pairs, a simple way to introduce kids to poetry because the sounds are so close together. “In winter I get up at night//And dress by yellow candle-light” Then the children could talk about their morning routines, maybe attempt to make up a rhyming couplet about it.
This collection is full of short but sweet poems. The author I’ve met earlier with her “Goblin Market” story that was an interesting and fun read in itself. Rosetti has a fine ear and the short poems have a lovely flow to me. The themes of motherhood and infant mortality mentioned in the introduction do ring true and do give pause, but I feel that for children’s poetry, they don’t always notice or take things as jarringly as we as adults might.
Here a child sleeps, but does not wake for weeks and weeks. Perhaps this child actually has died and the child that comes “weeks and weeks” later in his place is actually a second child “with his own pretty look”, but then maybe the child is actually terribly ill and returns to health again, which I can’t imagine was terribly common in the Victorian era, or in the least the awakened child would be greatly weaken and not live longer beyond this.
To actually use with children, I’d rather use something like “1 and I are 2-“ because as it also shows language skills, it can help with early math skills too. I recall using poems and rhymes to help with my math skills growing up, and I know those things are often hard for children to pick up. My mother and I were always on the search for pneumatic devices for remembering. Admittedly, some of the terms aren’t exactly commonly used these days, but they’re not entirely obscure. Also numbers are something children learn alongside their letters, so those are words they are already very familiar with. To make it more interactive, you can also insert other phrases. Instead of “3 and 3 are 6-//Barley sugar sticks.” Maybe try something like “3 and 3 and 6-//Sugar coated Kix.” Like the cereal!
Might the reawakening be in heaven? Rossetti WAS a devout Catholic.
“Our little baby fell asleep,
And may not wake again,
For days and days, and weeks and weeks;
But then he’ll wake again,
And come with his own pretty look,
And kiss Mamma again.”
Here a child sleeps, but does not wake for weeks and weeks. Perhaps this child actually has died and the child that comes “weeks and weeks” later in his place is actually a second child “with his own pretty look”, but then maybe the child is actually terribly ill and returns to health again, which I can’t imagine was terribly common in the Victorian era, or in the least the awakened child would be greatly weaken and not live longer beyond this.
To actually use with children, I’d rather use something like “1 and I are 2-“ because as it also shows language skills, it can help with early math skills too. I recall using poems and rhymes to help with my math skills growing up, and I know those things are often hard for children to pick up. My mother and I were always on the search for pneumatic devices for remembering. Admittedly, some of the terms aren’t exactly commonly used these days, but they’re not entirely obscure. Also numbers are something children learn alongside their letters, so those are words they are already very familiar with. To make it more interactive, you can also insert other phrases. Instead of “3 and 3 are 6-//Barley sugar sticks.” Maybe try something like “3 and 3 and 6-//Sugar coated Kix.” Like the cereal!
Might the reawakening be in heaven? Rossetti WAS a devout Catholic.
Lullabies and Baby Songs
On all, which do you remember from your own childhood? Others?
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I've actually heard "All the Pretty Little Horses" in a movie at Busch Gardens, the scary 4D film that was about the children going to the lighthouse. One of the ghosts sang it. I haven't heard any versions of it myself growing up though. If I had any lullabies growing up, it was "Rock-a-Bye Baby" or as they call it, "The Cradle Song".
It seems to me that the heavy repetitions in many of the lullabies, say “Sleep, baby, sleep!” is to help lull the child into a peaceful state. For the matter of storytelling, to show kids different tales I would use this because I like it. It’s a good example of the rhythms you see and the hint of darkness some have in the dog biting. This and “Wynken, Blynken, and Nod” because I did actually learn this one when I was in school years and always found it a fun adventurous sort of story. To actually use for my hypothetical child, I’d go with something calmer because honestly I think there’s plenty out there giving kids bits of fear in the media that it’s not as needed to tell a baby to be quiet or they’ll be bit by a dog. Maybe an older child who you could gently pinch and tease, who would find it fun. Not that “Cradle Song” isn’t dark, it’s a falling baby, but I feel like it’s more imaginative, further from the child’s realm of experience. Everyone falls at some point, sure, but eventually you'll learn from it and be less bothered each time. I don't feel like it's the same for dog bites.
Interesting focus here on the content of these (aside from the one remark about the repetition--and also other sounds--as calming to infants) and whether or not they'd scare children. All of these here are or were one time read or sung to infants--even those which made reference to disturbing things. Ay thoughts on this?
Also, any thoughts on how these might help infants with early language development?
Well, it was suggested in the introduction that the darker images were meant to frighten away the nightmares from the child's slumber. This I could believe and even embrace, but these days I'm not sure if it's still needed. Then again, it's the darkness of something that puts a little fear into a child's existence. And considering my term project, maybe I should touch on these as well?
When kids hear things enough, they learn them, pick out sounds and words eventually. I mean, that's part of why kids first words are thins like mama and dada, because it's basic sounds they hear constantly and eventually learn to associate properly with the indicated source.
On the first here, let's remember some of Bettelheim's ideas about the more disturbing situations and characters in fairy tales--the way they objectify fears or issues children already face (even if subconsciously) in a way that makes them safer to confront.
Good on the other, but extend that beyond mama and dada--further along the language development continuum.
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I've actually heard "All the Pretty Little Horses" in a movie at Busch Gardens, the scary 4D film that was about the children going to the lighthouse. One of the ghosts sang it. I haven't heard any versions of it myself growing up though. If I had any lullabies growing up, it was "Rock-a-Bye Baby" or as they call it, "The Cradle Song".
It seems to me that the heavy repetitions in many of the lullabies, say “Sleep, baby, sleep!” is to help lull the child into a peaceful state. For the matter of storytelling, to show kids different tales I would use this because I like it. It’s a good example of the rhythms you see and the hint of darkness some have in the dog biting. This and “Wynken, Blynken, and Nod” because I did actually learn this one when I was in school years and always found it a fun adventurous sort of story. To actually use for my hypothetical child, I’d go with something calmer because honestly I think there’s plenty out there giving kids bits of fear in the media that it’s not as needed to tell a baby to be quiet or they’ll be bit by a dog. Maybe an older child who you could gently pinch and tease, who would find it fun. Not that “Cradle Song” isn’t dark, it’s a falling baby, but I feel like it’s more imaginative, further from the child’s realm of experience. Everyone falls at some point, sure, but eventually you'll learn from it and be less bothered each time. I don't feel like it's the same for dog bites.
Interesting focus here on the content of these (aside from the one remark about the repetition--and also other sounds--as calming to infants) and whether or not they'd scare children. All of these here are or were one time read or sung to infants--even those which made reference to disturbing things. Ay thoughts on this?
Also, any thoughts on how these might help infants with early language development?
Well, it was suggested in the introduction that the darker images were meant to frighten away the nightmares from the child's slumber. This I could believe and even embrace, but these days I'm not sure if it's still needed. Then again, it's the darkness of something that puts a little fear into a child's existence. And considering my term project, maybe I should touch on these as well?
When kids hear things enough, they learn them, pick out sounds and words eventually. I mean, that's part of why kids first words are thins like mama and dada, because it's basic sounds they hear constantly and eventually learn to associate properly with the indicated source.
On the first here, let's remember some of Bettelheim's ideas about the more disturbing situations and characters in fairy tales--the way they objectify fears or issues children already face (even if subconsciously) in a way that makes them safer to confront.
Good on the other, but extend that beyond mama and dada--further along the language development continuum.
Riddles and Wordplay
On all, which do you remember from your own childhood? Others?
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I wish they had more in this section honestly. The ones they have are sort of old and not well known I don’t feel. Also I don’t think they make much sense, but riddles and word games are a thing of time. Even things I knew growing up have changed, or at least for kids. “What’s black and white and red all over?” I’d say a newspaper, but a site for kid’s riddles told me it was “a zebra with too much lipstick” But there are still classics like, “Why is 6 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9! (Seven ate nine)” I wouldn’t use the ones from our book and I wish I could find the books I remember from when I was in elementary school. I’d want fun ones that would get kids thinking. I’d indulge in a little potty humor, “What’s brown and makes a sound like a bell? Dung” but the main purpose would be to get minds moving, maybe even making up their own riddles!
Didn't you like any of the ones here? Yes, most are pretty tiime-bound, but the idea is pretty timeless--the what-am-I type of riddle goes back to Medieval literature.
LOL on those you mention here--especially that humorous twist on the newspaper one. I'll add another: What did the 0 say to the 8? Nice belt!
LOL on the potty humor, too.
Not really. I didn't find them very engaging.
This topic brought out some silly discussion in my house. I asked my mom "What's black and white and red all over?" because the answer I had found when googling was not "A newspaper" as I know it, but "A zebra with too much lipstick" and I had to stop to laugh. A silly answer works better for kids I guess. An old friend of mine told me when I asked her that riddle "A zebra with a sunburn." Now my mom showed her dark sense of humor with it and told me "a nun falling down the stairs" which blew me away. She knew the newspaper answer, but she swore to her that's what it had always been. It's crazy to see things change or get taken to strange and silly extents.
LOL on these. Yes, the silly stuff appeals to kids--a reason why nonsense verse also appeals.
Here's a grodey one: What's green and hangs? Elephant snot. A sillt one (two-parter): What did Tarzan say when he say the elephants coming? "Here come the elephants!" What dod Tarzan say when he saw the elephants coming wearing sunglasses? Nothing. He didn't recognize them.
Too bad you didn't like the ones in the book.
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I wish they had more in this section honestly. The ones they have are sort of old and not well known I don’t feel. Also I don’t think they make much sense, but riddles and word games are a thing of time. Even things I knew growing up have changed, or at least for kids. “What’s black and white and red all over?” I’d say a newspaper, but a site for kid’s riddles told me it was “a zebra with too much lipstick” But there are still classics like, “Why is 6 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9! (Seven ate nine)” I wouldn’t use the ones from our book and I wish I could find the books I remember from when I was in elementary school. I’d want fun ones that would get kids thinking. I’d indulge in a little potty humor, “What’s brown and makes a sound like a bell? Dung” but the main purpose would be to get minds moving, maybe even making up their own riddles!
Didn't you like any of the ones here? Yes, most are pretty tiime-bound, but the idea is pretty timeless--the what-am-I type of riddle goes back to Medieval literature.
LOL on those you mention here--especially that humorous twist on the newspaper one. I'll add another: What did the 0 say to the 8? Nice belt!
LOL on the potty humor, too.
Not really. I didn't find them very engaging.
This topic brought out some silly discussion in my house. I asked my mom "What's black and white and red all over?" because the answer I had found when googling was not "A newspaper" as I know it, but "A zebra with too much lipstick" and I had to stop to laugh. A silly answer works better for kids I guess. An old friend of mine told me when I asked her that riddle "A zebra with a sunburn." Now my mom showed her dark sense of humor with it and told me "a nun falling down the stairs" which blew me away. She knew the newspaper answer, but she swore to her that's what it had always been. It's crazy to see things change or get taken to strange and silly extents.
LOL on these. Yes, the silly stuff appeals to kids--a reason why nonsense verse also appeals.
Here's a grodey one: What's green and hangs? Elephant snot. A sillt one (two-parter): What did Tarzan say when he say the elephants coming? "Here come the elephants!" What dod Tarzan say when he saw the elephants coming wearing sunglasses? Nothing. He didn't recognize them.
Too bad you didn't like the ones in the book.
Playground Verse
On all, which do you remember from your own childhood? Others?
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I remember “Shortenin’ bread” but my version is different. The last verse they have I know, but not the rest and I can’t get it flowing as I know it from these words. I feel like this has also changed greatly over time. Playground verse as it’s given here I feel has turned into more like jump rope rhymes and clapping games.
And then counting out the jumps. Even that’s a little dated in my opinion, but that’s what I associate these with. I was terrible at jumping rope, but I loved watching. I think exposing kids to different versions of these sort of things is fun and could be interesting to them. It shows different cultures and what’s going on in some time periods. One of the clapping songs I still can’t find a good version of has different versions that involved Michael Jackson and King Kong.
If you can find that Michael Jackson/King Kong clapping song, post it.
Brian posted a longer version of the Cinderella song.
Actually, all of these were always jump rope, clapping or other activity-based rhymes, and, as Carrie notes, the activities, tied to the rhymes, get the brain as well as the body moving.
They ARE interesting from a cultural perspective, too--good material for ethnographic research.
I saw that! After googling around, I'm wondering if I'm recalling wrong or if my group of kids was just strange or mixing stuff up themselves. As soon as I posted this, I kicked myself for not bringing up my favorite clapping song, Miss Mary Mack!
I think the version I played was this one:
And we sat in this big circle with lots of kids. Everyone would sit cross legged with their hands on their knees touching the other kids hands, all palm up, everyone with a hand over lapping the kid next to them. On each syllable, one kid would clap their hand against the next kid, who would then do the same. When you were the last kid you had to move your hand out of the way, or you would be out. If you succeeded, then the kid that should have slapped your hand would be out. It was fun and got us all laughing and interacting.
The other version I found definitely shows more of the time period this came around. Or at least this version.
COOL clapping songs! Any thoughts on how they helped you--or might help other kids--develop language skills? See/hear any connections to rap here?
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I remember “Shortenin’ bread” but my version is different. The last verse they have I know, but not the rest and I can’t get it flowing as I know it from these words. I feel like this has also changed greatly over time. Playground verse as it’s given here I feel has turned into more like jump rope rhymes and clapping games.
“Cinderella, dressed in yellow
Went upstairs to kiss her fellow
But goodness sake, it was a snake!
How many kisses did he take?”
And then counting out the jumps. Even that’s a little dated in my opinion, but that’s what I associate these with. I was terrible at jumping rope, but I loved watching. I think exposing kids to different versions of these sort of things is fun and could be interesting to them. It shows different cultures and what’s going on in some time periods. One of the clapping songs I still can’t find a good version of has different versions that involved Michael Jackson and King Kong.
If you can find that Michael Jackson/King Kong clapping song, post it.
Brian posted a longer version of the Cinderella song.
Actually, all of these were always jump rope, clapping or other activity-based rhymes, and, as Carrie notes, the activities, tied to the rhymes, get the brain as well as the body moving.
They ARE interesting from a cultural perspective, too--good material for ethnographic research.
I saw that! After googling around, I'm wondering if I'm recalling wrong or if my group of kids was just strange or mixing stuff up themselves. As soon as I posted this, I kicked myself for not bringing up my favorite clapping song, Miss Mary Mack!
I think the version I played was this one:
"Ooooh,
Down by the banks
Of the Hane-key Pan-ky
Where the bull-frogs jump
From bank to bank-key
With a hip, hop, soda pop
East side, west side
KER-PLOP!"
And we sat in this big circle with lots of kids. Everyone would sit cross legged with their hands on their knees touching the other kids hands, all palm up, everyone with a hand over lapping the kid next to them. On each syllable, one kid would clap their hand against the next kid, who would then do the same. When you were the last kid you had to move your hand out of the way, or you would be out. If you succeeded, then the kid that should have slapped your hand would be out. It was fun and got us all laughing and interacting.
The other version I found definitely shows more of the time period this came around. Or at least this version.
"Down by the banks of the hanky panky
Where the bull frogs jump from bank to bank
singin' Eeeps ipes opes oops
silly will ding dong
I pleage aligence to the flag
Michal Jackson makes me gag
Pepsi cola burt my butt
Now were talkin' 7 up
7 up has no caffine
now were talkin billy jean
Billy Jean is out of sight
now were talkin dynomite
dynomite blew up the school
Now were talkin' really cool
10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1"
COOL clapping songs! Any thoughts on how they helped you--or might help other kids--develop language skills? See/hear any connections to rap here?
How do you think young readers might benefit from reading stories of adventure--one in which a character or group undertakes a journey, facing and overcoming obstacles along the way? If you can recall an adventure story you read when younger, use that as an example.
This is something young readers might often find themselves doing in one form or another. The first day at school, going to a playground that’s unusual and eating lunch with strange kids that you don’t know, then later in life things like your first car trip driving alone or learning to socialize, these could all be situations in which you could relate experiences from adventure novels. Thinking of these brave individuals, like Winnie the Pooh and Christopher Robin off looking for honey and helping their friends or Robinson Crusoe living on his own on an island though he came from a good family back in York, it makes our more everyday tasks seem easier. When I was little I read The Boxcar Children. These were four siblings who all lived in a boxcar and had to take care of each other. I would play things out and say that our porch was my boxcar. Then at school after my friends and I watched X-Men or Power Rangers, we’d play around as if we were them. I feel like it helped us all learn to socialize and interact together better.
The best post so far on kid's tendencies to go on imaginary adventures and how that might make them "take" to adventure stories, AND on how adventure stories and make us see and approach life AS an adventure.
As I asked others,however, how does this differ from the benefits of literature in other genres (such as fantasy or sci fi) which contain (both group and individual*) adventures? What make adventure stories, in themselves, differ?
* The socialization thing also applies to any text in which characters depend on each other.
This is something young readers might often find themselves doing in one form or another. The first day at school, going to a playground that’s unusual and eating lunch with strange kids that you don’t know, then later in life things like your first car trip driving alone or learning to socialize, these could all be situations in which you could relate experiences from adventure novels. Thinking of these brave individuals, like Winnie the Pooh and Christopher Robin off looking for honey and helping their friends or Robinson Crusoe living on his own on an island though he came from a good family back in York, it makes our more everyday tasks seem easier. When I was little I read The Boxcar Children. These were four siblings who all lived in a boxcar and had to take care of each other. I would play things out and say that our porch was my boxcar. Then at school after my friends and I watched X-Men or Power Rangers, we’d play around as if we were them. I feel like it helped us all learn to socialize and interact together better.
The best post so far on kid's tendencies to go on imaginary adventures and how that might make them "take" to adventure stories, AND on how adventure stories and make us see and approach life AS an adventure.
As I asked others,however, how does this differ from the benefits of literature in other genres (such as fantasy or sci fi) which contain (both group and individual*) adventures? What make adventure stories, in themselves, differ?
* The socialization thing also applies to any text in which characters depend on each other.
For all three stories, our regular questions in one prompt: Pretend you're a teacher or parent (unless you are one). For what age groups are each of these stories most appropriate and why? How would you teach these stories to or share them with your students or children (for younger kids, focus on the Defoe or Milne; for older--but not too old--focus on the Konigsberg)? What would be your objectives? Activities to fulfill these?
I don’t feel like I’d want to work with Robinson Crusoe. While it’s a good story, I don’t like it because its form is so different from other writing that I would introduce to young people. The lack of separated dialogue really bothers me, but that might be personal choice there. The basic adventure of it is great and remarkable, there is something to be said for it being the first of its kind and one of the earliest examples of a novel with appeal to the young adult market, but I feel this telling is out of doubt terribly. If I wanted to use something like it, I’d probably go more for “The Swiss Family Robinson” which was inspired by DeFoe’s novel, while being written to teach the author’s children morals and self reliance. Not that children in this day and age will need some of the lessons that might have been more literal in the early 1900’s, but still. As an adventure book, its fine and good, just I feel there are better materials out there.
Having said that, all things considered I feel like it would be appropriate for children of maybe the 6-12 age range. This is when the child is learning their limits, how far they can take something and at what point they fail. The adventure story reinforces the independence they have already understood between 3-6 (version of this story might be good for that age range as well on the subject of independence.) and can encourage discussion of taking different methods to get to a certain end. What could Crusoe have done differently? How could he have handled the situation with Friday better? I really feel the story could use an update to be truly useful though. It can easily be used as a stepping stone to other adventure novels, like “The Swiss Family Robinson,” “Little House on the Prairie,” “Johnny Tremain” and book series like “The Boxcar Children.”
Winnie the Pooh is definitely excellent for the 3-6 age range. That’s when I recall Pooh being introduced to me. Many of the characters are very much like children themselves. Obviously Christopher Robin is a child, but he takes the lead here. Pooh is also like a child, but one that is almost younger and needs to be taught and explained to by Christopher Robin. The characters are similar to different parts of the child’s own feelings. Pooh is loyal and tries very hard, Rabbit is sort of grumpy, but he means well like a parents, poor Piglet is always frightened and is to be protected. Within these stories, a child could easily take on any role they wish safely. Pooh has such a rich history and it still well known today (I think it is at least!) so I feel like this would be easier to work with. Pooh is a kid friendly, lots of animals that you know and I feel it harkens back to the animal fables with a little less moral basis maybe. You could relate these characters to others from those stories, picking favorites and making suggestions for other characters, like maybe a Fox character or something fun. Children could draw out their favorite scenes or write their own song about their adventures.
Were you perhaps also put off by the racism in this version of "Crusoe?" (BTW: The designation of "Crusoe" as the first novel in English is shaky.)
You spend a LOT of time on this, and I'm curious as to why you didn't hook into the survival-on-a-deserted-island element.
LOL on Pooh being like animal fables with less of a moral message. Thing is, aren't these also Christopher's STUFFED animals? So how about getting young children to write about their adventures with those, especially since most of them have such imaginary adventures?
Sorry for not giving you a librarian prompt on these, but I bet it'd e easy to think of a library display ad/or activity with Pooh.
I'd like your response to the Konigsberg as well--maybe a lbrarian one, linked to the art: the Metropolitan Museum has a website.
BB tends to be "obnoxious" between midnight and 4 A.M.--they do backup--but initial posts in this class are always due on Wednesday.
I don’t feel like I’d want to work with Robinson Crusoe. While it’s a good story, I don’t like it because its form is so different from other writing that I would introduce to young people. The lack of separated dialogue really bothers me, but that might be personal choice there. The basic adventure of it is great and remarkable, there is something to be said for it being the first of its kind and one of the earliest examples of a novel with appeal to the young adult market, but I feel this telling is out of doubt terribly. If I wanted to use something like it, I’d probably go more for “The Swiss Family Robinson” which was inspired by DeFoe’s novel, while being written to teach the author’s children morals and self reliance. Not that children in this day and age will need some of the lessons that might have been more literal in the early 1900’s, but still. As an adventure book, its fine and good, just I feel there are better materials out there.
Having said that, all things considered I feel like it would be appropriate for children of maybe the 6-12 age range. This is when the child is learning their limits, how far they can take something and at what point they fail. The adventure story reinforces the independence they have already understood between 3-6 (version of this story might be good for that age range as well on the subject of independence.) and can encourage discussion of taking different methods to get to a certain end. What could Crusoe have done differently? How could he have handled the situation with Friday better? I really feel the story could use an update to be truly useful though. It can easily be used as a stepping stone to other adventure novels, like “The Swiss Family Robinson,” “Little House on the Prairie,” “Johnny Tremain” and book series like “The Boxcar Children.”
Winnie the Pooh is definitely excellent for the 3-6 age range. That’s when I recall Pooh being introduced to me. Many of the characters are very much like children themselves. Obviously Christopher Robin is a child, but he takes the lead here. Pooh is also like a child, but one that is almost younger and needs to be taught and explained to by Christopher Robin. The characters are similar to different parts of the child’s own feelings. Pooh is loyal and tries very hard, Rabbit is sort of grumpy, but he means well like a parents, poor Piglet is always frightened and is to be protected. Within these stories, a child could easily take on any role they wish safely. Pooh has such a rich history and it still well known today (I think it is at least!) so I feel like this would be easier to work with. Pooh is a kid friendly, lots of animals that you know and I feel it harkens back to the animal fables with a little less moral basis maybe. You could relate these characters to others from those stories, picking favorites and making suggestions for other characters, like maybe a Fox character or something fun. Children could draw out their favorite scenes or write their own song about their adventures.
Were you perhaps also put off by the racism in this version of "Crusoe?" (BTW: The designation of "Crusoe" as the first novel in English is shaky.)
You spend a LOT of time on this, and I'm curious as to why you didn't hook into the survival-on-a-deserted-island element.
LOL on Pooh being like animal fables with less of a moral message. Thing is, aren't these also Christopher's STUFFED animals? So how about getting young children to write about their adventures with those, especially since most of them have such imaginary adventures?
Sorry for not giving you a librarian prompt on these, but I bet it'd e easy to think of a library display ad/or activity with Pooh.
I'd like your response to the Konigsberg as well--maybe a lbrarian one, linked to the art: the Metropolitan Museum has a website.
BB tends to be "obnoxious" between midnight and 4 A.M.--they do backup--but initial posts in this class are always due on Wednesday.
The Long Rain
So I'm unsure what's going on with the player you posted because it shows up as a black bar, but then I don't use compatible browsers more often than not so maybe that's just me.
This started off so slowly. When the monster/storm came in, it was more interesting. I don't see why it took so long to name Picard. I also wonder the time period when this was written because I have trouble imagining men on Venus that weren't wearing space suits or something. The idea seems so novel today. When they got so excited, I knew something was going to be wrong in the dome. This isn't just sci-fi, it's like the end of the world for these men. Honestly, at the end I was pretty invested, I was raelly worried that he was just dreaming.
I'd rather read to someone than be read to I feel. I used audio books to put myself to sleep when staying in hotels and when I had my eye surgery a couple years back, so this is just what I've gotten used to. I feel like I might have liked this more in writing. I usually love short stories.
How'd you finally get to hear it? Sorry you didn't get full enjoyment, due to your prior experiece with audio books.
The slow start discussion here is interesting, but isn't that Bradbury setting the sci-fi scene?
On the ending--deliberately ambiguous, to leave the reader thinking--as it obviously did all of you.
This was actually written in the 60's--and a lot of that earlier sci fi is rougher than the stuff you've read.
He does set the scene. It almost seemed warlike, but I guess it's more nature vs. man than man vs. man. Or even alien vs. man in a sense, since even the nature of the planet is alien to the men.
Ah, yeah, true. I mean, Asimov seemed to cover his bases when it came to protection and such from his "I, Robot" stories, but I think that was also partly to really put the robots to work as he intended to be seen. I've decided I can manage with this, but a part of me is still blown that these men didn't even wear hats or something covering their heads if they knew they'd be in the rain.
So you played it in Windows Media Player? The most comprehensive work-around is to install and use Mozilla Firefox as your browser.
Interesting thoughts on the conflict here, but you get that the "slow" part is exposition--and setting it up as sci fi.
On the other thing, nice (and careful) contrast to Asimov, but isn't the lack of protection integral to the story? This gets off the sci fi as future elements, but Bradbury published the story in the late 40's, and the situation the characters are in mirrors in certain ways that of soldiers in the Pacific conflict during WWII.
This started off so slowly. When the monster/storm came in, it was more interesting. I don't see why it took so long to name Picard. I also wonder the time period when this was written because I have trouble imagining men on Venus that weren't wearing space suits or something. The idea seems so novel today. When they got so excited, I knew something was going to be wrong in the dome. This isn't just sci-fi, it's like the end of the world for these men. Honestly, at the end I was pretty invested, I was raelly worried that he was just dreaming.
I'd rather read to someone than be read to I feel. I used audio books to put myself to sleep when staying in hotels and when I had my eye surgery a couple years back, so this is just what I've gotten used to. I feel like I might have liked this more in writing. I usually love short stories.
How'd you finally get to hear it? Sorry you didn't get full enjoyment, due to your prior experiece with audio books.
The slow start discussion here is interesting, but isn't that Bradbury setting the sci-fi scene?
On the ending--deliberately ambiguous, to leave the reader thinking--as it obviously did all of you.
This was actually written in the 60's--and a lot of that earlier sci fi is rougher than the stuff you've read.
He does set the scene. It almost seemed warlike, but I guess it's more nature vs. man than man vs. man. Or even alien vs. man in a sense, since even the nature of the planet is alien to the men.
Ah, yeah, true. I mean, Asimov seemed to cover his bases when it came to protection and such from his "I, Robot" stories, but I think that was also partly to really put the robots to work as he intended to be seen. I've decided I can manage with this, but a part of me is still blown that these men didn't even wear hats or something covering their heads if they knew they'd be in the rain.
So you played it in Windows Media Player? The most comprehensive work-around is to install and use Mozilla Firefox as your browser.
Interesting thoughts on the conflict here, but you get that the "slow" part is exposition--and setting it up as sci fi.
On the other thing, nice (and careful) contrast to Asimov, but isn't the lack of protection integral to the story? This gets off the sci fi as future elements, but Bradbury published the story in the late 40's, and the situation the characters are in mirrors in certain ways that of soldiers in the Pacific conflict during WWII.
For what ages do you think his (and McIntyre's) writing is appropriate and why? What do you think children of that age might learn (or how might they otherwise benefit) from reading this material?
The use of snakes was a little creepy, but interesting as I read. These creatures are treated with respect and that's a good example for children. The fact that there were three parents was a little confusing to me, but it's honestly easily glossed over. I feel like this story could help children learn to accept others that are different from themselves as they see more tolerance in the child, Stavin, than in his family. Considering the suggestion of more than just a friendship between Snake and Arevin, I feel like this reflects a stronger rating, but since nothing actually happens and she only noticed his body then that also weighs in.
I feel this could be acceptable for maybe about 10 or 11? I mostly base this off of my own reading as a child though. That was about the age when I started reading series, such as Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game" and Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern. The former could get rather violent at times and the second had light violence and implied sexuality. This is the same area i'd place this story in.
You and Tamara were the only ones to hit on what I see as the main theme of the McIntyre--acceptance of and respect for difference.
The hints of adult material you see here become actuality later in this novel, so I'd go with that stronger rating:-)
Like you, I read sci fi early on--mostly Bradbury and Heinlein at 11 (I've read Card and McCafreey since).
Any thoughts, given your familiarity with the genre, on its benefits in general as the literature of the possible?
Well, sci-fi introduces ideas that because of their position they seem as though they could actually be attainable. Heck, looking back we can see people dreaming of things that we ourselves have since attained or are currently working toward. It sets people to dreaming and thinking. Cellphones, computers, laptops particularly, even robotic endeavors were inspired by science fiction to some degree. The idea of robots was actually around long before the technology could even be properly dreamed of. The very term "robot" was first a term from a play written by Karel Čapek in 1920.
NAILED it--and it's possible that those who read sci fi as kids were inspired by that to go on and create these inventions. Doesn't sci fi, in part, also drive all who dream of and work toward space travel and colonization? And how about sci fi and quantum physics?
Good on the reference Capek, though the IDEA of robots/automatons goes much further back.
[The except from Dreamsnake can be found here.]
The use of snakes was a little creepy, but interesting as I read. These creatures are treated with respect and that's a good example for children. The fact that there were three parents was a little confusing to me, but it's honestly easily glossed over. I feel like this story could help children learn to accept others that are different from themselves as they see more tolerance in the child, Stavin, than in his family. Considering the suggestion of more than just a friendship between Snake and Arevin, I feel like this reflects a stronger rating, but since nothing actually happens and she only noticed his body then that also weighs in.
I feel this could be acceptable for maybe about 10 or 11? I mostly base this off of my own reading as a child though. That was about the age when I started reading series, such as Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game" and Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern. The former could get rather violent at times and the second had light violence and implied sexuality. This is the same area i'd place this story in.
You and Tamara were the only ones to hit on what I see as the main theme of the McIntyre--acceptance of and respect for difference.
The hints of adult material you see here become actuality later in this novel, so I'd go with that stronger rating:-)
Like you, I read sci fi early on--mostly Bradbury and Heinlein at 11 (I've read Card and McCafreey since).
Any thoughts, given your familiarity with the genre, on its benefits in general as the literature of the possible?
Well, sci-fi introduces ideas that because of their position they seem as though they could actually be attainable. Heck, looking back we can see people dreaming of things that we ourselves have since attained or are currently working toward. It sets people to dreaming and thinking. Cellphones, computers, laptops particularly, even robotic endeavors were inspired by science fiction to some degree. The idea of robots was actually around long before the technology could even be properly dreamed of. The very term "robot" was first a term from a play written by Karel Čapek in 1920.
NAILED it--and it's possible that those who read sci fi as kids were inspired by that to go on and create these inventions. Doesn't sci fi, in part, also drive all who dream of and work toward space travel and colonization? And how about sci fi and quantum physics?
Good on the reference Capek, though the IDEA of robots/automatons goes much further back.
[The except from Dreamsnake can be found here.]
Book Banning Sci-Fi
As far as science fiction novels for young adults, I'd want to any young adult I know to read the same book I've recommended to so many people and have even bought copies for it as gifts. Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game". The author has some politics that I don't agree with, but honestly, I've gotten to a point of when I enjoy a book I try not to worry about that. A six year old boy, a Third in a society where you're only allowed two children unless sanctioned by the Government, is taken from his family to be trained as the commander of the world's forces against the Buggers, aliens that had tried to attack the Earth in the past. These are very intelligent children and they learn how to deal with growing up, bullies, situations that are out of their hands with logic and cool minds. I would have children read this and discuss ways they would use to solve the problems that Ender faces, choices that he's made.
This week I'll throw this link at you guys: Scifi Books That Have Been Banned in the 21st Century
I'm always saddened when I see books like The Giver on the list. I mean, it's a good book and it shows us things growing up that we might not have even thought of before. His Dark Materials I see the reason for banning it, but honestly I feel like it could just as easily be taken as an enjoyable story as well. Not child is going to sit there and examine a novel and then start questioning their religion because of it. Frankly, young adulthood is a time when lots of children question well, everything. A book series isn't going to be a deciding factor.
It also disturbs me that you see "reasons for banning" His Dark Materials--though I don't think you meant it that way:-)
Good poit about young adulthood as a time of questioning, but is that the best defense of sci fi that you can come up with
It's more being able to see where they take their ideas from than actually agreeing with their ideas.
Well, as a genre it gives kids a safe place to see strong issues, like racism, that otherwise might be pussy footed around in a regular novel. They see a world that could be, like in The Giver, and it gets them thinking if they want this or if they don't, and what they can do about it. It introduces new ideas that aren't easily introduced.
Thought so--just wanted to make sure--and to get you to clarify:-)
Okay on the rest--but true of many forms of literature. I'm talking about the nature of sci fi as a genre, as the literature of the possible (possible futures, mainly).
This week I'll throw this link at you guys: Scifi Books That Have Been Banned in the 21st Century
I'm always saddened when I see books like The Giver on the list. I mean, it's a good book and it shows us things growing up that we might not have even thought of before. His Dark Materials I see the reason for banning it, but honestly I feel like it could just as easily be taken as an enjoyable story as well. Not child is going to sit there and examine a novel and then start questioning their religion because of it. Frankly, young adulthood is a time when lots of children question well, everything. A book series isn't going to be a deciding factor.
It also disturbs me that you see "reasons for banning" His Dark Materials--though I don't think you meant it that way:-)
Good poit about young adulthood as a time of questioning, but is that the best defense of sci fi that you can come up with
It's more being able to see where they take their ideas from than actually agreeing with their ideas.
Well, as a genre it gives kids a safe place to see strong issues, like racism, that otherwise might be pussy footed around in a regular novel. They see a world that could be, like in The Giver, and it gets them thinking if they want this or if they don't, and what they can do about it. It introduces new ideas that aren't easily introduced.
Thought so--just wanted to make sure--and to get you to clarify:-)
Okay on the rest--but true of many forms of literature. I'm talking about the nature of sci fi as a genre, as the literature of the possible (possible futures, mainly).
Banned Books
50 Banned Books That Every Should Read
I'll say the most shocking reason I've found given for books being banned is that they "show disobedience toward adults." I'm sorry, but isn't that called being a child? Aren't we all disobedient at times? It'd be a sad state if children only acted up because of reading one book where the children acted up. These books have so much to offer. The Golden Compass's protagonist is precocious and willful, but she's bright and she's a loyal friend. Harry Potter goes through so many hardships, from the death of the parents he never knew, to this strange all powerful wizard that pursues him, and the loss of mentors and friends along the way, and though he doesn't always deal well wit it, who would? Though the story is based in a magical realm, his character is the hero on a quest which we all know very well and frankly I've always loved.
I also came across this interesting article about banned fantasy from Vivian Vande Velde!
I haven't actually heard of Vivian Vande Velde, but I love her opinion on this. Parents should certainly be involved instead of just poopooing something they've never touched and have only been told about. When something gets labeled as taboo, it becomes more enticing just as she's said. A good friend of mine told me before that she doesn't want to be some nosy parent, but that she would be reading the novels her children read and I told her there was nothing wrong with that. Honestly, fewer books would be banned if parents and teachers took the time to give an appraising eye instead of just going with a hard of naysayers. I'm going to pull a quote on one of the author's own books here:
This is absolutely true. We've all been there and fantasy is a safe way to experience it. We're disconnected enough to not feel embarrassed or worried, to feel safe still, but we can watch how this character takes a situation and handles it while wondering what we'd do and relate it to our own lives. That's the point of good fiction I feel. To connect. The books that stay with you are the ones you connect best with.
Good links, and not a disjointed rant.
Agreed that more parents should read these books with their kids--that way, they'd see the things you (and Van de Velte) see in them, rather than the things their churches and other conservative advisors tell them. (Good on the disobedient child idiocy here, but these folks object to much more, including fantasy and magic in and of themselves.)
However, the question becomes HOW to get them to do this.
Libraries could play a role here--maybe oanel discussions on these issues.
Back to "Summe Reading" for a second: any ideas on using that story in a library setting--or ideas for libraries better supporting summer reading assignments?
I'll say the most shocking reason I've found given for books being banned is that they "show disobedience toward adults." I'm sorry, but isn't that called being a child? Aren't we all disobedient at times? It'd be a sad state if children only acted up because of reading one book where the children acted up. These books have so much to offer. The Golden Compass's protagonist is precocious and willful, but she's bright and she's a loyal friend. Harry Potter goes through so many hardships, from the death of the parents he never knew, to this strange all powerful wizard that pursues him, and the loss of mentors and friends along the way, and though he doesn't always deal well wit it, who would? Though the story is based in a magical realm, his character is the hero on a quest which we all know very well and frankly I've always loved.
I also came across this interesting article about banned fantasy from Vivian Vande Velde!
I haven't actually heard of Vivian Vande Velde, but I love her opinion on this. Parents should certainly be involved instead of just poopooing something they've never touched and have only been told about. When something gets labeled as taboo, it becomes more enticing just as she's said. A good friend of mine told me before that she doesn't want to be some nosy parent, but that she would be reading the novels her children read and I told her there was nothing wrong with that. Honestly, fewer books would be banned if parents and teachers took the time to give an appraising eye instead of just going with a hard of naysayers. I'm going to pull a quote on one of the author's own books here:
"Dragon's Bait is about a girl who gets accused of something she hasn't done. Just about everyone has found him or herself in this situation at some time or another. I wanted to explore her reactions, I wanted readers to connect with her, but I didn't want people to connect so closely that their own experiences got in the way. So I had her be accused of something I figured the majority of my readers had probably NOT been accused of: being a witch. So they can recognize her problem, they can relate it back in a general way to their own lives, they can judge her actions, but they aren't so caught up in the specifics that they lose track of the fact that being accused of something you didn't do is a universal theme."
This is absolutely true. We've all been there and fantasy is a safe way to experience it. We're disconnected enough to not feel embarrassed or worried, to feel safe still, but we can watch how this character takes a situation and handles it while wondering what we'd do and relate it to our own lives. That's the point of good fiction I feel. To connect. The books that stay with you are the ones you connect best with.
Good links, and not a disjointed rant.
Agreed that more parents should read these books with their kids--that way, they'd see the things you (and Van de Velte) see in them, rather than the things their churches and other conservative advisors tell them. (Good on the disobedient child idiocy here, but these folks object to much more, including fantasy and magic in and of themselves.)
However, the question becomes HOW to get them to do this.
Libraries could play a role here--maybe oanel discussions on these issues.
Back to "Summe Reading" for a second: any ideas on using that story in a library setting--or ideas for libraries better supporting summer reading assignments?
Alice Vs. The Time Warp Trio
How might young readers respond to and benefit from reading Alice in Wonderland and "Summer Reading is Killing Me"?
I think young readers would enjoy the fun of both stories. Alice involves such turn around talking that it could be confusing, but has a fun flow and I think that young readers, children who know the story from movies could really enjoy Alice's adventures and wandering. As I said elsewhere, I don't think teens would take to Alice very much because I feel that they might feel condescended to when they're told Alice's reasoning for thinking things or even just following Alice herself as the girl tries to sound much wiser than she is at times and that could get annoying. Most people can still relate to Alice though in theory. We've all been in positions where we had no idea what was going on and felt like the rest of the world knew exactly what it was about.
With the Time Warp Trio, I think it's more contemporary and would be easier for anyone to get into. The language is plain and easy to flow with. The three boys are easy to relate to yourself or your friends. Even you you aren't the Joe, we all know a Sam and Fred. Kids can read this and feel connected to the characters, but in this particular one they can also meet characters that could draw them to other books in an easy and safe way. The Girl character that combines so many is brave and where this seems like a set of books that young girls could also be interested in though it's aimed at boys, that character is a perfect set up to draw them to other books series and classics as well.
AS Carrie's reply to this suggests, I wish that everyone, like you (though you're already a fantasy fan) got that this stuff IS fun.
I need to remind myself to change that "young readers" to "independent readers." :-)
On the Alice/Scieszka (language) thing, think it's a matter of the Alice books being Victorian? Seen charcters like Alice anywhere else in the fantasy lit? On the language/appeal of the Alice books, might those independent readers (or younger) benefit from the nonsense stuff?
LOL on the paranoid thing here.
Good on why contemporary readers might relate more easily to the Sciezka, and good (as Carrie notes) on the Girl as hero, but what I ike best and would like to hear more about is how the story might draw readers to other books--and how about the humor in this?
I think young readers would enjoy the fun of both stories. Alice involves such turn around talking that it could be confusing, but has a fun flow and I think that young readers, children who know the story from movies could really enjoy Alice's adventures and wandering. As I said elsewhere, I don't think teens would take to Alice very much because I feel that they might feel condescended to when they're told Alice's reasoning for thinking things or even just following Alice herself as the girl tries to sound much wiser than she is at times and that could get annoying. Most people can still relate to Alice though in theory. We've all been in positions where we had no idea what was going on and felt like the rest of the world knew exactly what it was about.
With the Time Warp Trio, I think it's more contemporary and would be easier for anyone to get into. The language is plain and easy to flow with. The three boys are easy to relate to yourself or your friends. Even you you aren't the Joe, we all know a Sam and Fred. Kids can read this and feel connected to the characters, but in this particular one they can also meet characters that could draw them to other books in an easy and safe way. The Girl character that combines so many is brave and where this seems like a set of books that young girls could also be interested in though it's aimed at boys, that character is a perfect set up to draw them to other books series and classics as well.
AS Carrie's reply to this suggests, I wish that everyone, like you (though you're already a fantasy fan) got that this stuff IS fun.
I need to remind myself to change that "young readers" to "independent readers." :-)
On the Alice/Scieszka (language) thing, think it's a matter of the Alice books being Victorian? Seen charcters like Alice anywhere else in the fantasy lit? On the language/appeal of the Alice books, might those independent readers (or younger) benefit from the nonsense stuff?
LOL on the paranoid thing here.
Good on why contemporary readers might relate more easily to the Sciezka, and good (as Carrie notes) on the Girl as hero, but what I ike best and would like to hear more about is how the story might draw readers to other books--and how about the humor in this?
Pretend you're a middle to high school teacher or that (if you don't) you have kids old enough to read these. Which of these two works would you cover in your classroom or your kids? What would be your objectives? Activities?
Young adults in this day and age I don’t think would take well to Alice in Wonderland as it is. Perhaps in another format, but not the original story I feel. The language and attitude toward children reminds me of C.S. Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia with how it addresses the child’s mind. It’s a manner of explaining what the child was thinking or their reasons for acting as they have that I liked as an adult but was always unsure about as a teen because I would think “No, I know this character and I know why they are doing this. Why are you telling me?” But it’s for that sake I lean toward the Time Warp Trio. I’m unsure though whether this is an example of modern children’s thinking or the dumbing down of children’s literature because I just feel that Alice should be introduced to a child when they are younger, maybe elementary school. Also while I feel Alice is classic, I think teens especially tend to like more contemporary novels, just looking at what’s popular today can indicate that.
I also feel that “Summer Reading Is Killing Me” is a great segway into more advanced novels and any reader would get excited when they recognize a character from other readings! They not only involved classic characters, but also the kids from the Wayside School which was a favorite of mine in youth and the concept of “The Girl” blending together for them was sort of hilarious. As a female reader though, I would have liked to see novels that The Girl’s various faces actually came from on that reading list included at the end of the story. As much as I loved to read,m I used to hate summer/assigned reading because I didn’t like being forced to read, but books have become more fun over the years and schools are more open I feel.
On dumbing down: the Alice books appeal to different readers differently at different ages, and a lot of fantasy-loving teems, tweens and younger independent readers were exposed to fantasy through them; fewer since Harry Potter.
Why do you feel "Summer Reading" might lead young readers to read more advanced fiction?
Do you think you might've enjoyed summer reading more had you read this story to prepare for it? Why or why not?
Young adults in this day and age I don’t think would take well to Alice in Wonderland as it is. Perhaps in another format, but not the original story I feel. The language and attitude toward children reminds me of C.S. Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia with how it addresses the child’s mind. It’s a manner of explaining what the child was thinking or their reasons for acting as they have that I liked as an adult but was always unsure about as a teen because I would think “No, I know this character and I know why they are doing this. Why are you telling me?” But it’s for that sake I lean toward the Time Warp Trio. I’m unsure though whether this is an example of modern children’s thinking or the dumbing down of children’s literature because I just feel that Alice should be introduced to a child when they are younger, maybe elementary school. Also while I feel Alice is classic, I think teens especially tend to like more contemporary novels, just looking at what’s popular today can indicate that.
I also feel that “Summer Reading Is Killing Me” is a great segway into more advanced novels and any reader would get excited when they recognize a character from other readings! They not only involved classic characters, but also the kids from the Wayside School which was a favorite of mine in youth and the concept of “The Girl” blending together for them was sort of hilarious. As a female reader though, I would have liked to see novels that The Girl’s various faces actually came from on that reading list included at the end of the story. As much as I loved to read,m I used to hate summer/assigned reading because I didn’t like being forced to read, but books have become more fun over the years and schools are more open I feel.
On dumbing down: the Alice books appeal to different readers differently at different ages, and a lot of fantasy-loving teems, tweens and younger independent readers were exposed to fantasy through them; fewer since Harry Potter.
Why do you feel "Summer Reading" might lead young readers to read more advanced fiction?
Do you think you might've enjoyed summer reading more had you read this story to prepare for it? Why or why not?
Theseus
Which myths would you cover in your classroom or share with your children? Why? What would be your objectives and what activities would you use to reach these objectives?
I’d have no issue with sharing the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur with children, though of course the age of the child would impact which telling I would use. I always felt something shorter and more concise was more drawing to children. Chapter books to be handled in a chapter a sitting and so on mostly because that’s how I still read myself when I have the chance. Limiting my reading time and cutting off at author approved pausing points, cliffhanger or no, is best when you’re busy I’ve always felt, but that’s neither here nor there.
Theseus’s adventure with the Minotaur is exciting and fine for young children. The Minotaur is a little scary maybe, but again that depends on the telling I feel. Godwin’s telling was short and sweet. He didn’t go into great detail, but that leaves more to the imagination at times. The death of Aegean in the end was sad, but that sort of thing does happen in fairytales as well and few bat an eye.
Hawthorne's telling is more interesting and more like a story than a simple summary. Here we actually see the process of Theseus being brave, we see the action as opposed to being told about it. We actually truly meet Ariadne, who in one version I've read in the past he took her with him back home and another he took her, but left her on a nearby island. I rather like this ending instead, it shows her to be a strong female in her own right. I feel this would be the telling I would deliver to children.
Kingsley also told a story. He worked in the story of Icaros (or Icarus) flying too close to the sun with his wax wings that melted and led to his death. The story again runs the same, though here we see Ariadne and Theseus developing feelings for one another and she leaving with him.
I do wish that there had been more variety and less a matter of presenting the same myth told differently though. I know there were still the other two, but there are so many myths out there and not just Greek! I feel that I'd want to promote as much mythology as I could, though I admit that I would mostly use Greek tales to bring in children who have heard or seen references to such things in their shows, movies, and cartoons. I love displays, so maybe during a mythology week, there could be an event where kids could get worksheets with mazes or maybe large maze on a dry erase board they could take up and get a free bookmark for playing. I'd also involve things that would be readily recognizable, such as Hercules and Pegasus.
Agreed that myths in certain versions are as fine as fairy tales to young kids; also agreed that myths are a great way to introduce kids to many cultures, and I'd include these, as well as other Greek myths, during Mythology Week at your library.
I’d have no issue with sharing the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur with children, though of course the age of the child would impact which telling I would use. I always felt something shorter and more concise was more drawing to children. Chapter books to be handled in a chapter a sitting and so on mostly because that’s how I still read myself when I have the chance. Limiting my reading time and cutting off at author approved pausing points, cliffhanger or no, is best when you’re busy I’ve always felt, but that’s neither here nor there.
Theseus’s adventure with the Minotaur is exciting and fine for young children. The Minotaur is a little scary maybe, but again that depends on the telling I feel. Godwin’s telling was short and sweet. He didn’t go into great detail, but that leaves more to the imagination at times. The death of Aegean in the end was sad, but that sort of thing does happen in fairytales as well and few bat an eye.
Hawthorne's telling is more interesting and more like a story than a simple summary. Here we actually see the process of Theseus being brave, we see the action as opposed to being told about it. We actually truly meet Ariadne, who in one version I've read in the past he took her with him back home and another he took her, but left her on a nearby island. I rather like this ending instead, it shows her to be a strong female in her own right. I feel this would be the telling I would deliver to children.
Kingsley also told a story. He worked in the story of Icaros (or Icarus) flying too close to the sun with his wax wings that melted and led to his death. The story again runs the same, though here we see Ariadne and Theseus developing feelings for one another and she leaving with him.
I do wish that there had been more variety and less a matter of presenting the same myth told differently though. I know there were still the other two, but there are so many myths out there and not just Greek! I feel that I'd want to promote as much mythology as I could, though I admit that I would mostly use Greek tales to bring in children who have heard or seen references to such things in their shows, movies, and cartoons. I love displays, so maybe during a mythology week, there could be an event where kids could get worksheets with mazes or maybe large maze on a dry erase board they could take up and get a free bookmark for playing. I'd also involve things that would be readily recognizable, such as Hercules and Pegasus.
Agreed that myths in certain versions are as fine as fairy tales to young kids; also agreed that myths are a great way to introduce kids to many cultures, and I'd include these, as well as other Greek myths, during Mythology Week at your library.
Legends
To which of these or other legends would you expose your students or children? Why? What would be your objectives and what activities would you use to reach these objectives?
Legends are really wide spread, even if we don't always call something a legend. Maybe because I'm American, but I didn't realize that Robin Hood and King Arthur were actually considered legends. It makes good sense, just not something I had previously thought of.
My personal favorite was always King Arthur and the various versions of it. I feel like there are so many different re-tellings that almost everyone could find a version they like, adult and children. While "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" is good, I feel like I'd rather share something like "The Sword and the Stone" to children because Arthur is still a child and isn't yet king until he pulls the sword from the stone. And yeah, technically I'm working off of the movie but I know there is a book of it.
I'd love to have a big display like a castle to hold the books with a stone with a sword in it in front of it. Of course, all fake. Then have a big poster or easel with paper where kids could write down something they'd like to decree if their were suddenly king or queen.
Nice idea for a library display on Arhurian literature--and maybe on all those fantasy works based on it.
The Sword in the Stone is a section in my favorite retelling of the Arthurian legends--T.H. White's The Once and Future King. Might have done this last semester, but I REALLY recommend that.
You shou;d also recall the discussion of the SArturian material in 243--it IS all legend, and one of England's founding myths.
Legends are really wide spread, even if we don't always call something a legend. Maybe because I'm American, but I didn't realize that Robin Hood and King Arthur were actually considered legends. It makes good sense, just not something I had previously thought of.
My personal favorite was always King Arthur and the various versions of it. I feel like there are so many different re-tellings that almost everyone could find a version they like, adult and children. While "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" is good, I feel like I'd rather share something like "The Sword and the Stone" to children because Arthur is still a child and isn't yet king until he pulls the sword from the stone. And yeah, technically I'm working off of the movie but I know there is a book of it.
I'd love to have a big display like a castle to hold the books with a stone with a sword in it in front of it. Of course, all fake. Then have a big poster or easel with paper where kids could write down something they'd like to decree if their were suddenly king or queen.
Nice idea for a library display on Arhurian literature--and maybe on all those fantasy works based on it.
The Sword in the Stone is a section in my favorite retelling of the Arthurian legends--T.H. White's The Once and Future King. Might have done this last semester, but I REALLY recommend that.
You shou;d also recall the discussion of the SArturian material in 243--it IS all legend, and one of England's founding myths.
From the text:
Do you interpret the whole and then the parts, or the parts and then the whole? And if the process is sequential, what determines the sequence? Where do you look first? What do you see first? How do you construct the meaning of the picture? (Actually, one might substitute "the child" for "you" here, IF you know how a child might see your picture or can get a child to answer these questions.)
Also: What are the schemes of color and/or of light and dark in your picture? How about layout: how things and people are positioned? How about arrangement of people and objects by shape and size?
This video is of a little girl reading my favorite picture book, "Madeline" by Ludwig Bemelmans out loud. She can be difficult to understand and she gets a little loud at certain points, but there are also subtitles. I don't know the little girl, but I figured this would be good. The note for it said she had it memorized, which is more noticeable at sometimes than others. I found myself remembering a lot of the lines myself.
I'd present the parts and then want it to be taken as a whole after the fact. You can't rush a child and each page has a different rich image on it so go along with the text beneath, so each page should be taken as its own. I'd say picture first, it draws the eye, though hopefully soon after the text and than maybe revisit and talk about the pictures. This is me, of course. I do have a niece and nephew, but not regular access to them. Remembering what I used to do, the pictures always drew my attention first and from past experiences with my nephew, Tyee also likes to jump to pictures first.
The thing about Madeline books is the repetition. You knew whatever was going to happen, there would be the "twelve little girls in two straight lines. The smallest one was Madeline" And we would follow this brave little girl that would say "Pooh-Pooh" to tigers and frighten poor Miss Clavel like crazy! They almost always started the same way, so you could sit back and enjoy the art as well.
As the pictures go, there are two main types. The first we see is much like the cover, outdoor scenes with Paris landmarks that show the girls in their two straight lines. The illustration style reminds me of old paintings, I can't pinpoint by whom. The second type of image is mostly with indoor scenes, times where we need to pay attention to the actions of the characters (especially Madeline) so the background is a plain yellow, much like the yellow of the dresses the little girls all wear. Probably one of the most interesting things I noticed revisiting this is how the little girls' lines only seem to go wrong when the page is about Madeline, though not always, it did happen very often.
Thanks for this--I read this as a child, so it brings up memories for me, too!
On the parts vs. whole thing, I meant individual pictures rather than books--doing this here will help if you ever serve as a children's librarian, not only sharing books with children, but in choosing and designing posters/online images that will engage small children.
Good, but I'd like more, on the interaction between pictures and text.
The artwork reminds me of early Impressionism.
Interesting on that last remark--do you mean the text or the images?
Do you interpret the whole and then the parts, or the parts and then the whole? And if the process is sequential, what determines the sequence? Where do you look first? What do you see first? How do you construct the meaning of the picture? (Actually, one might substitute "the child" for "you" here, IF you know how a child might see your picture or can get a child to answer these questions.)
Also: What are the schemes of color and/or of light and dark in your picture? How about layout: how things and people are positioned? How about arrangement of people and objects by shape and size?
This video is of a little girl reading my favorite picture book, "Madeline" by Ludwig Bemelmans out loud. She can be difficult to understand and she gets a little loud at certain points, but there are also subtitles. I don't know the little girl, but I figured this would be good. The note for it said she had it memorized, which is more noticeable at sometimes than others. I found myself remembering a lot of the lines myself.
I'd present the parts and then want it to be taken as a whole after the fact. You can't rush a child and each page has a different rich image on it so go along with the text beneath, so each page should be taken as its own. I'd say picture first, it draws the eye, though hopefully soon after the text and than maybe revisit and talk about the pictures. This is me, of course. I do have a niece and nephew, but not regular access to them. Remembering what I used to do, the pictures always drew my attention first and from past experiences with my nephew, Tyee also likes to jump to pictures first.
The thing about Madeline books is the repetition. You knew whatever was going to happen, there would be the "twelve little girls in two straight lines. The smallest one was Madeline" And we would follow this brave little girl that would say "Pooh-Pooh" to tigers and frighten poor Miss Clavel like crazy! They almost always started the same way, so you could sit back and enjoy the art as well.
As the pictures go, there are two main types. The first we see is much like the cover, outdoor scenes with Paris landmarks that show the girls in their two straight lines. The illustration style reminds me of old paintings, I can't pinpoint by whom. The second type of image is mostly with indoor scenes, times where we need to pay attention to the actions of the characters (especially Madeline) so the background is a plain yellow, much like the yellow of the dresses the little girls all wear. Probably one of the most interesting things I noticed revisiting this is how the little girls' lines only seem to go wrong when the page is about Madeline, though not always, it did happen very often.
Thanks for this--I read this as a child, so it brings up memories for me, too!
On the parts vs. whole thing, I meant individual pictures rather than books--doing this here will help if you ever serve as a children's librarian, not only sharing books with children, but in choosing and designing posters/online images that will engage small children.
Good, but I'd like more, on the interaction between pictures and text.
The artwork reminds me of early Impressionism.
Interesting on that last remark--do you mean the text or the images?
Tuesday, May 11, 2010
Plays: Peter Pan
Peter Pan is also a fantasy, so consider how seeing it might affect or benefit a child of a particular age.
How would you present this play in your classroom or share it with your children? What objectives and activities would you associate with the play?
Children soak in everything. With plays, they see another world played out in front of them. I’m a firm believer that plays should be seen and not read. I was fortunate enough that my grandmother agreed with me so I went to see Cats and Annie with her when I was growing up, along with Evita, Taming of the Shrew (in the round! It was amazing!) and plenty others thanks to school programs. I feel Peter Pan is appealing to a good range of kids, and young ones would love to see it performed. With a library setting, I’d have not a fully cast performance, but maybe a shadow puppet or regular puppet show performed for the kids. Kids should always be encouraged to participate and have fun, so were I working in a school program I would gladly help them put on Peter Pan with child actors. I feel that middle school is getting too old or this, but elementary seems good to me. I always loved Peter Pan for being interactive and younger is better here because I feel that children can suspend their belief more easily as they are younger. Whether you believe in fairies or not, it’s difficult to not want to clap for Tink to live when the play is done well. It’s infectious!
The play itself is fun and good. Wendy, John, and Michael and mostly just playing pretend throughout. They learn that though you should remain a child as long as you’re permitted, there is a time to grow up and take up responsibilities. Wendy especially, and young girls through her, finds that the role of mother while fun can be trying and that she really isn’t a mother yet, but she certainly is aging. Peter on the other hand doesn’t learn and he never will. He isn’t unhappy, but he is alone in the end. I'm sad for Peter in the end because other versions he does go back and one I swear he fell in love with Wendy's granddaughter or daughter or something. I found that very sweet.
Like a few (too few:-() others, you has the experience with live theatre that most kids have--it's much more interactive than movies.
Cute idea for the library.
Not sure middle (or even high school) is too old for this--my nephew (in the picture) was in late middle school when he played Peter, and the audience ranged in age from 2 to 70--and all loved it, nit to mention clapping for Tink:-).
Good on the themes.
I recall the version you mention--might it have been the Mary Martin?
It is really hard to beat theatre first hand. Something my wife and I are trying to do is expose our children to such. We know it will only benefit them and help give them an appreciation for something other than movies and tv.
Shadow puppets. Now that is an intersting concept and I do believe the children would love it.
How would you present this play in your classroom or share it with your children? What objectives and activities would you associate with the play?
Children soak in everything. With plays, they see another world played out in front of them. I’m a firm believer that plays should be seen and not read. I was fortunate enough that my grandmother agreed with me so I went to see Cats and Annie with her when I was growing up, along with Evita, Taming of the Shrew (in the round! It was amazing!) and plenty others thanks to school programs. I feel Peter Pan is appealing to a good range of kids, and young ones would love to see it performed. With a library setting, I’d have not a fully cast performance, but maybe a shadow puppet or regular puppet show performed for the kids. Kids should always be encouraged to participate and have fun, so were I working in a school program I would gladly help them put on Peter Pan with child actors. I feel that middle school is getting too old or this, but elementary seems good to me. I always loved Peter Pan for being interactive and younger is better here because I feel that children can suspend their belief more easily as they are younger. Whether you believe in fairies or not, it’s difficult to not want to clap for Tink to live when the play is done well. It’s infectious!
The play itself is fun and good. Wendy, John, and Michael and mostly just playing pretend throughout. They learn that though you should remain a child as long as you’re permitted, there is a time to grow up and take up responsibilities. Wendy especially, and young girls through her, finds that the role of mother while fun can be trying and that she really isn’t a mother yet, but she certainly is aging. Peter on the other hand doesn’t learn and he never will. He isn’t unhappy, but he is alone in the end. I'm sad for Peter in the end because other versions he does go back and one I swear he fell in love with Wendy's granddaughter or daughter or something. I found that very sweet.
Like a few (too few:-() others, you has the experience with live theatre that most kids have--it's much more interactive than movies.
Cute idea for the library.
Not sure middle (or even high school) is too old for this--my nephew (in the picture) was in late middle school when he played Peter, and the audience ranged in age from 2 to 70--and all loved it, nit to mention clapping for Tink:-).
Good on the themes.
I recall the version you mention--might it have been the Mary Martin?
It is really hard to beat theatre first hand. Something my wife and I are trying to do is expose our children to such. We know it will only benefit them and help give them an appreciation for something other than movies and tv.
Shadow puppets. Now that is an intersting concept and I do believe the children would love it.
Monday, May 10, 2010
The Convergence of the Twain
"The Convergence of the Twain" is about the event made famous for us in the movie Titanic. Focus on the way the events unfold in the poem, and try to articulate the point the poem makes about it.
This poem is beautifully worded. The style is different, simpler than the other poems we’ve read from Hardy. The image presented is that of the Titanic being almost not savaged as much as artistically and naturally overtaken by the sea, like it was being accepted into this different world. The idea Hardy wants us to see is that even this was supposed to happen. That the moment this ship came into creation, it's companion iceberg was already out there somewhere, waiting.
This poem is beautifully worded. The style is different, simpler than the other poems we’ve read from Hardy. The image presented is that of the Titanic being almost not savaged as much as artistically and naturally overtaken by the sea, like it was being accepted into this different world. The idea Hardy wants us to see is that even this was supposed to happen. That the moment this ship came into creation, it's companion iceberg was already out there somewhere, waiting.
“Well: while was fashioning
This creature of cleaving wing,
The Immanent will that stir and urges everything
Prepared a sinister mate
For her- So gaily great-
A Shape of Ice, for the time far and dissociate.”
The Ruined Maid
"The Ruined Maid" isn't on the Schedule, but I think some might want to respond to it. What is the poem's attitude toward the "ruined" Amelia--"ruined" meaning that she's a prostitute.
The attitude toward prostitution doesn’t seem a bad one. The primary speaker talks about Amelia’s changes for the better, how Amelia dresses more fashionably, speaker properly, even her skin and hands are finer, softer and her attitude is even brighter. The speaker, Amelia’s old friend even comments on how she wishes she could be like Amelia and have these nice things, but Amelia tells her, “My dear- A raw country girl, such as you be,//Cannot quite expect that. You ain’t ruined.” I feel that Amelia doesn’t want the two lives to cross. Her answers are simple, all saying that she’s “ruined” without further discussion. Her friend, the speaker doesn’t seem to quite understand this, only seeing her for her finery. The speaker accepts her and almost seems in awe.
The attitude toward prostitution doesn’t seem a bad one. The primary speaker talks about Amelia’s changes for the better, how Amelia dresses more fashionably, speaker properly, even her skin and hands are finer, softer and her attitude is even brighter. The speaker, Amelia’s old friend even comments on how she wishes she could be like Amelia and have these nice things, but Amelia tells her, “My dear- A raw country girl, such as you be,//Cannot quite expect that. You ain’t ruined.” I feel that Amelia doesn’t want the two lives to cross. Her answers are simple, all saying that she’s “ruined” without further discussion. Her friend, the speaker doesn’t seem to quite understand this, only seeing her for her finery. The speaker accepts her and almost seems in awe.
The Darkling Thrush
As the note to "The Darkling Thrush" points out, the poem was written (or at least dated) on the eve of the 20th century. As with "Neutral Tones," focus in your response to this on the speaker's tone as it is reflected in the imagery, paying particular attention to the description of the thrush (a type of bird).
Here it is winter. Our speaker is leaning on a gate in a forested place, seemingly alone, checking out nature around him. He compares the landscape to the ending century, “The land’s sharp features seemed to be//The Century’s corpse outleant” Which is a scary image, a corpse leaning out of its coffin. Maybe as though it was watching its final moments pass by. The whole night seems to be as lacking in zeal as the speaker, or so he thinks, “And every spirit upon earth//Seemed fervourless as I.” Then comes the thrush. In all this drabness, the thrust is this sudden sort of jolt of joy.
Though the thrush is not a young and fresh creature, but “aged… frail, gaunt, and small” so it doesn’t represent the newness of the coming century. I’d say that his song was the possibility of hope for something new and incredible in the future.
What did you think of the poem?
Here it is winter. Our speaker is leaning on a gate in a forested place, seemingly alone, checking out nature around him. He compares the landscape to the ending century, “The land’s sharp features seemed to be//The Century’s corpse outleant” Which is a scary image, a corpse leaning out of its coffin. Maybe as though it was watching its final moments pass by. The whole night seems to be as lacking in zeal as the speaker, or so he thinks, “And every spirit upon earth//Seemed fervourless as I.” Then comes the thrush. In all this drabness, the thrust is this sudden sort of jolt of joy.
“At once a voice arose among
The bleak twigs overhead
In a full-hearted evensong
Of joy illuminated”
Though the thrush is not a young and fresh creature, but “aged… frail, gaunt, and small” so it doesn’t represent the newness of the coming century. I’d say that his song was the possibility of hope for something new and incredible in the future.
“That I could think there trembled through,
His happy good-night air
Some blessed Hope, whereof he knew
And I was unaware.”
What did you think of the poem?
Neutral Tones
I (and others) find "Neutral Tones" to be the bitterest poem in the English language. Focus in your response to this mainly on the speaker's tone and on how it is reflected in the imagery.
--
At first I thought the term was bittersweet, but no, bitter is fitting with this poem. The speaker is one of a pair, likely lovers considering the final stanza. The speaker is recalling this scene, this lover, though he admits that other happenings have colored the memories since these events.
"Since then, keen lessons that love deceives,
And wrings with wrong, have shaped me
Your face, and the God-curst sun, and a tree,
And a pond edged with grayish leaves."
The poem is set in winter, which can be beautiful, but is not described as such here. Where the sun could have been white like fresh snow or something pleasant, it’s instead “white, as though chidden of God” the grass if “starving sod” the leaves were “from an ash, and gray” which I feel was just to heighten the drabness of this scene. It’s richly drab if that’s anything. Even the way his lover looks at him. “Your eyes on me were as eyes that rove//Over tedious riddles of years ago” Where she is obviously studying him, he gives the image age and a sort of boredom or tedious nature. One would eventually get bored of studying ancient riddles or at least tire of it. Even her smile and grin were remembered foully. Her smile was “the deadest thing//Alive enough to have strength to die” then her grin was “a grin of bitterness thereby//Like an ominous bird a-wing.” One wonders if this was a foul and dark memory before the pair obviously turned out poorly with hatred at least from his side.
--
At first I thought the term was bittersweet, but no, bitter is fitting with this poem. The speaker is one of a pair, likely lovers considering the final stanza. The speaker is recalling this scene, this lover, though he admits that other happenings have colored the memories since these events.
"Since then, keen lessons that love deceives,
And wrings with wrong, have shaped me
Your face, and the God-curst sun, and a tree,
And a pond edged with grayish leaves."
The poem is set in winter, which can be beautiful, but is not described as such here. Where the sun could have been white like fresh snow or something pleasant, it’s instead “white, as though chidden of God” the grass if “starving sod” the leaves were “from an ash, and gray” which I feel was just to heighten the drabness of this scene. It’s richly drab if that’s anything. Even the way his lover looks at him. “Your eyes on me were as eyes that rove//Over tedious riddles of years ago” Where she is obviously studying him, he gives the image age and a sort of boredom or tedious nature. One would eventually get bored of studying ancient riddles or at least tire of it. Even her smile and grin were remembered foully. Her smile was “the deadest thing//Alive enough to have strength to die” then her grin was “a grin of bitterness thereby//Like an ominous bird a-wing.” One wonders if this was a foul and dark memory before the pair obviously turned out poorly with hatred at least from his side.
Hap
In explicating "Hap," focus on the ways in which it represents what I say above about Hardy's view of the world being ruled only by happenstance, chance, and situational irony.
The whole poem is about chance, that being the meaning of its name even. The speaker is unhappy due to some sort of misfortune in chance. In the first stanza, he says that if a “vengeful god” would just tell him that “thy sorrow is [my] ecstacy” that this god might take some joy from the speaker’s own pain, then he could bear the hard, being “Half-eased in that a Powerfuller then I//Had willed and meted me the tears I shed.” Meaning that he could then bear it because it meant that someone had gotten pleasure from his sorrow. However, he then says that this is not so. He doesn’t believe that he has been given his lot by gods, but by time and chance and that “The purblind Doomsters had as readily strown//Blisses about my pilgramage as pain.” Which leads him to believe that his bad times could have just as easily been good times, but for the matter of chance.
What stood out the most for you?
The whole poem is about chance, that being the meaning of its name even. The speaker is unhappy due to some sort of misfortune in chance. In the first stanza, he says that if a “vengeful god” would just tell him that “thy sorrow is [my] ecstacy” that this god might take some joy from the speaker’s own pain, then he could bear the hard, being “Half-eased in that a Powerfuller then I//Had willed and meted me the tears I shed.” Meaning that he could then bear it because it meant that someone had gotten pleasure from his sorrow. However, he then says that this is not so. He doesn’t believe that he has been given his lot by gods, but by time and chance and that “The purblind Doomsters had as readily strown//Blisses about my pilgramage as pain.” Which leads him to believe that his bad times could have just as easily been good times, but for the matter of chance.
What stood out the most for you?
A Room of One's Own: Judith Shakespeare
What does Woolf's story of Judith Shakespeare say about women writers in the Elizabethan era? Throughout history up until Woolf's time?
...
...
Musee des Beaux Arts
"Musee des Beaux Arts" is one of several poems based upon Pieter Brueghel's painting The Fall of Icarus. The other most famous one is by the American poet William Carlos Williams. Auden's speaker here (like those in many of his poems, suave, understated, ironic--here, as often, in spite of the horrors or desolation he describes) begins by describing several other paintings by the Dutch Old Masters in this imaginary Museum of Fine Arts, using what he says of them to lead into the remarks on the Bruegel painting. In responding to this poem, consider how it relates to the painting, but also discuss its broader message about human suffering.
The poem talks about the continuation of life. How it’s only human to continue on toward the next birth instead of simply mourning the pain and suffering of the time, though the younger generation will never appreciate this while they are young. “How, when the aged are reverently, passionately waiting//For the miraculous birth, there always must be//Children who did not specially want it to happen” and how the Dutch masters understood this process well. “About suffering they were never wrong,//The Old Masters: how well they understood//Its human position” Then the speaker concentrates on The Fall of Icarus. The painting is well described and truly, no one is watching the man’s failure. Though his failure was important to him, a situation of life and death that ended in death, it wasn’t important to the average man. “the ploughman may//Have heard the splash, the forsaken cry,//But for him it was not an important failure” There is a ship that likely saw the man fly, but no face shows towards Icarus in the water as they still have their own business. “and the expensive delicate ship that must have seen//Something amazing, a boy falling out of the sky,//Had somewhere to get to and sailed calmly away.” Even the sun only showed on Icarus only because it must. “the sun shone//As it had to on the white legs disappearing into the green//Water” I feel that the speaker is trying to say that suffering is inevitable and we must take it in stride and look forward to the positive things as opposed to the negative. Though the aged were looking forward to the next birth, they could have just as easily been awaiting their own death.
You get hung up on the age thing (and first painiting) in this reading--isnt the poem more about the "human position" of suffering, about how we all, wrapped up in our own lives and concerns, tend to overlook the suffering of others?
The poem talks about the continuation of life. How it’s only human to continue on toward the next birth instead of simply mourning the pain and suffering of the time, though the younger generation will never appreciate this while they are young. “How, when the aged are reverently, passionately waiting//For the miraculous birth, there always must be//Children who did not specially want it to happen” and how the Dutch masters understood this process well. “About suffering they were never wrong,//The Old Masters: how well they understood//Its human position” Then the speaker concentrates on The Fall of Icarus. The painting is well described and truly, no one is watching the man’s failure. Though his failure was important to him, a situation of life and death that ended in death, it wasn’t important to the average man. “the ploughman may//Have heard the splash, the forsaken cry,//But for him it was not an important failure” There is a ship that likely saw the man fly, but no face shows towards Icarus in the water as they still have their own business. “and the expensive delicate ship that must have seen//Something amazing, a boy falling out of the sky,//Had somewhere to get to and sailed calmly away.” Even the sun only showed on Icarus only because it must. “the sun shone//As it had to on the white legs disappearing into the green//Water” I feel that the speaker is trying to say that suffering is inevitable and we must take it in stride and look forward to the positive things as opposed to the negative. Though the aged were looking forward to the next birth, they could have just as easily been awaiting their own death.
You get hung up on the age thing (and first painiting) in this reading--isnt the poem more about the "human position" of suffering, about how we all, wrapped up in our own lives and concerns, tend to overlook the suffering of others?
In Memory of W.B. Yeats
Auden wrote (or finished) "In Memory of W.B. Yeats" shortly after Yeats died as an elegy to Yeats (and it is one of the best 20th century elegies). However, like Yeats' "Under Ben Bulben," it's also a poem about poetry. Consider in your response how the poem addresses BOTH things.
Also, after reading "In Memory of W.B. Yeats," go back to Yeats' "Under Ben Bulben" and see if you see any similarities or hear any echoes between the two poems; if so, note those in your response.
The poem starts off with beautifully crafted imagery. It’s as though the whole world mourns Yeats. “The brooks were frozen, the air-ports almost deserted,//And snow disfigured the public statues;//The mercury sank in the mouth of the dying day” It’s useful to the speaker that this death did happen in winter as it lends itself so easily to a world in mourning. The next part involving the river flowing and the wolves running however, contradicts this. This then suggests that things continued on, outright calling out that his poetry would continue on regardless of Yeats’ death. “The death of the poet was kept from his poems.”
One of the noticeable points that this and “Under Ben Bulben” seem to have in common is the commentary on calling people to the arts, something Yeats had done at other times as well and is likely an homage to him in this piece as well as a continued call.
A man can only do so much in his life, and should reach for greater, something I recall from “Ben Bulben.” The final lines truly call this to mind: “In the prison of his days//Teacher the free man how to praise.”
Good (and funny) on the setting/mood, and good on one of the main echos of "Ben Bulben," but don't both address and give advice to poets?
Doesn't this poem also say other, more subtle things about the poet and his work than that the work lives on, and what do you think of what this poem says of poetry?
Also, after reading "In Memory of W.B. Yeats," go back to Yeats' "Under Ben Bulben" and see if you see any similarities or hear any echoes between the two poems; if so, note those in your response.
The poem starts off with beautifully crafted imagery. It’s as though the whole world mourns Yeats. “The brooks were frozen, the air-ports almost deserted,//And snow disfigured the public statues;//The mercury sank in the mouth of the dying day” It’s useful to the speaker that this death did happen in winter as it lends itself so easily to a world in mourning. The next part involving the river flowing and the wolves running however, contradicts this. This then suggests that things continued on, outright calling out that his poetry would continue on regardless of Yeats’ death. “The death of the poet was kept from his poems.”
One of the noticeable points that this and “Under Ben Bulben” seem to have in common is the commentary on calling people to the arts, something Yeats had done at other times as well and is likely an homage to him in this piece as well as a continued call.
With a farming of a verse
Make a vineyard of the curse,
Sing of human unsuccess
In a rapture of distress
A man can only do so much in his life, and should reach for greater, something I recall from “Ben Bulben.” The final lines truly call this to mind: “In the prison of his days//Teacher the free man how to praise.”
Good (and funny) on the setting/mood, and good on one of the main echos of "Ben Bulben," but don't both address and give advice to poets?
Doesn't this poem also say other, more subtle things about the poet and his work than that the work lives on, and what do you think of what this poem says of poetry?
Fern Hill
In reading "Fern Hill," it might be helpful to keep in mind Wordworth's "We Are Seven" and Hopkins' "Spring and Fall"--for this poem, like those, is about our obliviousness to death in early youth. Focus on how Thomas gets this idea across, paying close attention to the words and images. Also, read this poem ALOUD, and focus too on what makes this unrhymed poem so powerfully poetic.
The poem still had an interesting rhythm to it without the rhyming. I feel like it might relate to their being similar sounds, alliteration, but subtly and the repeated use of certain words. “Trail with daisies and bar’ley’…. And as I was green and care’free’…. Time let me play and ‘be’….” Then there is the repetition of certain words, like green. Green here shows both the green and pleasantness of this scene as well as the naivety that goes with youth. In the end, green is mentioned in relation to death and time, so perhaps there it’s more relatable to the green of eroded brass like on a watch. Golden is also repeated, expressing the joy of youth and the enjoyment of naivety. You can’t be brought down by things you don’t know about. Unlike the other two poems we’ve read, this is the narrator looking back at their youth and seeing it with new eyes. He sees the joy he held, and he says the carefree state. While the others suggest that one day this state will change, for the speaker here it already has.
Decent on the poetics here, but also note the syllable counts in the lines:-)
Decent, too on the green and golden, but on the "tarnish" thing, not--see the last lines.
Great on the different focus/adress of this as compared to the others.
BUT--how does this poem affect you?
The poem still had an interesting rhythm to it without the rhyming. I feel like it might relate to their being similar sounds, alliteration, but subtly and the repeated use of certain words. “Trail with daisies and bar’ley’…. And as I was green and care’free’…. Time let me play and ‘be’….” Then there is the repetition of certain words, like green. Green here shows both the green and pleasantness of this scene as well as the naivety that goes with youth. In the end, green is mentioned in relation to death and time, so perhaps there it’s more relatable to the green of eroded brass like on a watch. Golden is also repeated, expressing the joy of youth and the enjoyment of naivety. You can’t be brought down by things you don’t know about. Unlike the other two poems we’ve read, this is the narrator looking back at their youth and seeing it with new eyes. He sees the joy he held, and he says the carefree state. While the others suggest that one day this state will change, for the speaker here it already has.
Decent on the poetics here, but also note the syllable counts in the lines:-)
Decent, too on the green and golden, but on the "tarnish" thing, not--see the last lines.
Great on the different focus/adress of this as compared to the others.
BUT--how does this poem affect you?
The Force That Through the Green Fuse Drives the Flower
In responding to "The Force That Through the Green Fuse Drives the Flower," discuss how it illustrates what the Editors say on p. 2444: "Thomas saw the workings of biology as a magical transformation producing unity out of diversity, and again and again in his poetry he sought a poetic ritual to celebrate this unity." Also discuss the meaning of the repeated phrase, "And I am dumb to tell."
You can see the fusion easily here. The speaker takes scientific explanations and gives them an almost magical air. He does not say why such a thing is so, just that it is so and it does this. “The force that through the green fuse drives the flower//Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees//Is my destroyer.” This natural force that brings flowers to grow and bloom he equates to the natural forces that age the human body. The concept makes excellent sense, as a plant doesn’t just bloom, it must age first from a seedling. “And I am dumb to…” I feel suggests that the speaker feels almost silly making these suggestions, that such natural things could not be so related to the human body or condition, and yet they are. The final two lines sum this up I feel. “And I am dumb to tell the lover’s tomb//How at my sheet goes the same crooked worm.” Suggesting that the speaker is still aging and already in a sense decaying much like the already dead.
Interesting on the science angle here--definitely 20th-century stuff, but in an almost Biblical tone.
Good on the life force angle, but see my replies to Ash and Erica (and all) on the "I am dumb to tell."
You can see the fusion easily here. The speaker takes scientific explanations and gives them an almost magical air. He does not say why such a thing is so, just that it is so and it does this. “The force that through the green fuse drives the flower//Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees//Is my destroyer.” This natural force that brings flowers to grow and bloom he equates to the natural forces that age the human body. The concept makes excellent sense, as a plant doesn’t just bloom, it must age first from a seedling. “And I am dumb to…” I feel suggests that the speaker feels almost silly making these suggestions, that such natural things could not be so related to the human body or condition, and yet they are. The final two lines sum this up I feel. “And I am dumb to tell the lover’s tomb//How at my sheet goes the same crooked worm.” Suggesting that the speaker is still aging and already in a sense decaying much like the already dead.
Interesting on the science angle here--definitely 20th-century stuff, but in an almost Biblical tone.
Good on the life force angle, but see my replies to Ash and Erica (and all) on the "I am dumb to tell."
Thursday, April 29, 2010
The Lake Isle of Innisfree
After reading "The Lake Isle of Innisfree" and making some notes on it, click on this link to hear Yeats reading the poem. Focus in your response on how his reading confirms, adds to or alters your understanding of the poem.
As I read the poem, I felt it was a longing. The footnote I feel agrees with this. This is his ideal wish, to create this home for himself in Innisfree. The first stanza has him describing the place, “And a small cabin will I have there, of clay and wattles made” He even says he will have bean rows and bees, perhaps things he had growing up or that help him recall his joyful days there. The speaker feels he’ll find peace at this place, “And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow,//Dropping from the veils of the morning to where the crickets sings” He feels peace can be found in this sort of place because it’s not some maddening fast paced environment. The speaker even feels pulled to this other place, as he heard the sound of the lake he missed where ever he went, sort of haunting him.
Listening to it, I feel my opinion and his agree on this poem. He sounds like a sad old man when he reads this poem.
As I read the poem, I felt it was a longing. The footnote I feel agrees with this. This is his ideal wish, to create this home for himself in Innisfree. The first stanza has him describing the place, “And a small cabin will I have there, of clay and wattles made” He even says he will have bean rows and bees, perhaps things he had growing up or that help him recall his joyful days there. The speaker feels he’ll find peace at this place, “And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow,//Dropping from the veils of the morning to where the crickets sings” He feels peace can be found in this sort of place because it’s not some maddening fast paced environment. The speaker even feels pulled to this other place, as he heard the sound of the lake he missed where ever he went, sort of haunting him.
"I will arise and go now, for always night and day
I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore;
While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey,
I hear it in the deep heart's core."
Listening to it, I feel my opinion and his agree on this poem. He sounds like a sad old man when he reads this poem.
No Second Troy
"No Second Troy" almost HAS to be read as authobiographical, containing pretty clear references to Maud Gonne. (Another poem Yeats wrote to/for her, which the ladies might find touching, is "The Folly of Being Comforted".) Interestingly, however, Yeats transcends the personal by identifying Maud Gonne with Helen of Troy. Focus on this in your response.
The references to Gonne are for her passion as a revolutionary activist and her strength in that. The similarities between herself and Helen of Troy make good sense when thinking of it from Yeats’ point of view. He loved her as men loved Helen, leading to the infamous war. What I suggest though, is that the speaker’s Helen is not just some great beauty, but a woman of strong passion that can make things for herself. The speaker asks, “Was there another Troy for her to burn?” which suggests many things. Would this woman be the downfall to great nations, perhaps by way of revolutional inspirations? To me, I feel she is as the title suggests. “No Second Troy” meaning she will not be one to be used and an item to be stolen.
Yes, the speaker (or Yeats) sees her this way, but Gonne also turned many other men's (and more politically involpved ones) heads.
On the title, maybe you're right, but maybe it also means she does what she does BECAUSE there is no second Troy for her to cause to be burned--that she's a Helen outside of her proper (heroic) time?
See Yeats' other poems on the Irish Rebellion--he was pretty ambivalent about it.
I enjoyed reading this poem there were times when I felt like the speaker was describing Maude and there were other times when the speaker was describing Helen. I especially felt that the first half of the poem was specifically about Maude and the second half of the poem was specifically about Helen. What do you think?
The references to Gonne are for her passion as a revolutionary activist and her strength in that. The similarities between herself and Helen of Troy make good sense when thinking of it from Yeats’ point of view. He loved her as men loved Helen, leading to the infamous war. What I suggest though, is that the speaker’s Helen is not just some great beauty, but a woman of strong passion that can make things for herself. The speaker asks, “Was there another Troy for her to burn?” which suggests many things. Would this woman be the downfall to great nations, perhaps by way of revolutional inspirations? To me, I feel she is as the title suggests. “No Second Troy” meaning she will not be one to be used and an item to be stolen.
Yes, the speaker (or Yeats) sees her this way, but Gonne also turned many other men's (and more politically involpved ones) heads.
On the title, maybe you're right, but maybe it also means she does what she does BECAUSE there is no second Troy for her to cause to be burned--that she's a Helen outside of her proper (heroic) time?
See Yeats' other poems on the Irish Rebellion--he was pretty ambivalent about it.
I enjoyed reading this poem there were times when I felt like the speaker was describing Maude and there were other times when the speaker was describing Helen. I especially felt that the first half of the poem was specifically about Maude and the second half of the poem was specifically about Helen. What do you think?
Easter 1916 & September 1913
Before you read "Easter 1916," read "September 1913." In responding to these, focus on the different views of/attitudes toward the Irish expressed in these poems, and speculate (having read the intro to Yeats in the book) about what caused this difference.
I feel that “September” could be better set to music than “Innisfree” because of the repetition of that final line. Not overly relevant, just a thought there. “September” is about what Yeats sees as a lack of passion in his countrymen. Here specifically, the speaker speaks of a lack of passion for the arts at first, with the reference to the lack of care the middle class held for the possibility of housing a collection of French impressionist painting when all that was asked for was a place to put them. Later the speaker brings in mention of prominent figures in the fight for Ireland’s freedom. He suggests that if they could go back and “call those exiles as they were” that people would still say they were made mad by “some woman’s yellow hair” lured into their behaviors by means beyond themselves. That is just dismissive and disrespectful of them, which I feel is what is being expressed in this poem. His repeated line, “Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,//It’s with O’Leary in the grave.” is I feel the simplest sum of this poem.
In “Easter” we see Yeats taking back his previous words. The speaker here talks of knowing these men, these people likely when he held the opinions expressed in “September”, but that they have since changed, “All changed, changed utterly://A terrible beauty is born.” as he repeats here. He again lists of people who fought, most who were executed, then goes on talking about the change. The speaker here sees that the people have changed; they don’t just sit idly by and allow things to happen around it.
You only get the first poem at the end--how does that refrain relate to what the speaker is saying of the Irish in the first?
Better on the second, but how would you characterize the tone of it (especially that "A terrible beauty is born")? See an attitude toward the Uprising developing between "No Second Troy" and this?
If you want a poem that REALLY should be set to music, respond to "Who Goes With Fergus." (actually, though, "Down By the Salley Gardens" is the one poem of Yeats that has most often been set to music).
I feel that “September” could be better set to music than “Innisfree” because of the repetition of that final line. Not overly relevant, just a thought there. “September” is about what Yeats sees as a lack of passion in his countrymen. Here specifically, the speaker speaks of a lack of passion for the arts at first, with the reference to the lack of care the middle class held for the possibility of housing a collection of French impressionist painting when all that was asked for was a place to put them. Later the speaker brings in mention of prominent figures in the fight for Ireland’s freedom. He suggests that if they could go back and “call those exiles as they were” that people would still say they were made mad by “some woman’s yellow hair” lured into their behaviors by means beyond themselves. That is just dismissive and disrespectful of them, which I feel is what is being expressed in this poem. His repeated line, “Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,//It’s with O’Leary in the grave.” is I feel the simplest sum of this poem.
In “Easter” we see Yeats taking back his previous words. The speaker here talks of knowing these men, these people likely when he held the opinions expressed in “September”, but that they have since changed, “All changed, changed utterly://A terrible beauty is born.” as he repeats here. He again lists of people who fought, most who were executed, then goes on talking about the change. The speaker here sees that the people have changed; they don’t just sit idly by and allow things to happen around it.
You only get the first poem at the end--how does that refrain relate to what the speaker is saying of the Irish in the first?
Better on the second, but how would you characterize the tone of it (especially that "A terrible beauty is born")? See an attitude toward the Uprising developing between "No Second Troy" and this?
If you want a poem that REALLY should be set to music, respond to "Who Goes With Fergus." (actually, though, "Down By the Salley Gardens" is the one poem of Yeats that has most often been set to music).
Under Ben Bulben
"Under Ben Bulben" is a self-epitaph, written in anticipation of the poet's own death.It begins (first three parts) by transferring an ancient sybil (female soothsayer) to Ireland, and goes on to talk of Irish history and the Irish.
We’re set off with mystical images: Sages and the Witch of Atlas, horsemen and fairy women, a company of immortals that travels through the dawn by the mountain, Ben Bulben. I feel with this presentation, these are all the same people. The next stanza speaks of the mortality of man. The speaker suggests that no matter how a person might die, it is not death they fear, but “A brief parting from those dear” and once dead their burial carries them along to their final eternity. I find this suggestion interesting; it involves no mention of Heaven or Hell, simply eternity and what waits there, being your loved ones. The third stanza goes on to reference John Mitchel, Irish nationalist, who called men to arms with his line, “Send war in our time, O Lord!” It almost reads as standing to fight is a natural position to man,
“Know that when all words are said
And a man is fighting mad,
Something drops from eyes long blind
He complete his partial mind,
For an instant stands at ease.”
Also saying that all men feel this at some point of time, “Before he can accomplish fate//Know his work or choose his mate.”
I can see the soothsayer business in the first part, the sybil being part of the company at the start. I don’t personally know Irish mythology, but the belief that when you’re put into the ground it you pass along into eternity was also slightly mentioned in “Dead Man’s Dump”, though Rosenburg did not specify eternity, he say that the dead soldiers had returned to the earth, making me feel that the burial of a body might be a key factor in their mourning and passing process.
In part 4, the speaker addresses the Irish poet, tracing the history of art from Michaelangelo to the unsatisfactory present, which he calls upon the present Irish poet to improve.
This continues in part 5, where the speaker gives more specific direction to the Irish poets.
This section is a plee to the artists (including writers I’m sure, but here most named are especially of artistic merit) to continue creating, to make great works like Michaelanglo’s Sistine Chapel that has lasted the ages can continue to be creating and give a beautiful meaning to life and representation of a further purpose. The second artist he mentions, Quattrocento created works of dreamy images that also gave the speaker thoughts of the eternal. Then he calls up artists and poets, which both include Blake and more than one are followers of Blake, which makes good sense in this context. Blake was not only a master, but his strong faith and works of faith fit in perfectly. The speaker doesn’t just want art for art’s sake, he wants it to have meaning, to show people that there is more beyond this existence and to give a spark to life.
Finally, in part 6, the poem focuses on Yeats himself, his life, his grave and epitaph. In responding, expand on these notes, quoting to support your commentary. As I say in the schedule, we'll come back to this poem when we get to W.H. Auden's "In Memory of W.B. Yeats."
It’s rather morbid honestly, I couldn’t imaging writing something about my grave like this. I feel here again, he wishes to push for a lack of vanity in himself. He wants his grave simple, “No marble, no conventional phrase” At his grave he wants the words, “Cast a cold eye/On life, on death.//Horseman, pass by!” I feel that he is still pushing for us to think about more than just living and existing, to actually work to make something of oneself and to give a meaning to life. Also I feel he suggests we should not fear death, as possibly the speaker no longer does. By this point, I know Yeats had buried many friends, so I feel he has come to accept it in this.
On the first 3 parts, isn't Yeats' speaker actually focusing on the continuum of Irish history and culture, placing that within the context of the whole of history, and suggesting that when Irishmen dies, they become a part of that history, that culture? And isn't he tracging Irish history to his time? Doesn't this tie it better to the next part, on the history of art, placing Irish art within it?
Also, on the directions to poets, isn't he adressing Irish poets, calling on them to preserve and promote Irish culture?
Also rethink/reread the ending in this context.
We’re set off with mystical images: Sages and the Witch of Atlas, horsemen and fairy women, a company of immortals that travels through the dawn by the mountain, Ben Bulben. I feel with this presentation, these are all the same people. The next stanza speaks of the mortality of man. The speaker suggests that no matter how a person might die, it is not death they fear, but “A brief parting from those dear” and once dead their burial carries them along to their final eternity. I find this suggestion interesting; it involves no mention of Heaven or Hell, simply eternity and what waits there, being your loved ones. The third stanza goes on to reference John Mitchel, Irish nationalist, who called men to arms with his line, “Send war in our time, O Lord!” It almost reads as standing to fight is a natural position to man,
“Know that when all words are said
And a man is fighting mad,
Something drops from eyes long blind
He complete his partial mind,
For an instant stands at ease.”
Also saying that all men feel this at some point of time, “Before he can accomplish fate//Know his work or choose his mate.”
I can see the soothsayer business in the first part, the sybil being part of the company at the start. I don’t personally know Irish mythology, but the belief that when you’re put into the ground it you pass along into eternity was also slightly mentioned in “Dead Man’s Dump”, though Rosenburg did not specify eternity, he say that the dead soldiers had returned to the earth, making me feel that the burial of a body might be a key factor in their mourning and passing process.
In part 4, the speaker addresses the Irish poet, tracing the history of art from Michaelangelo to the unsatisfactory present, which he calls upon the present Irish poet to improve.
This continues in part 5, where the speaker gives more specific direction to the Irish poets.
This section is a plee to the artists (including writers I’m sure, but here most named are especially of artistic merit) to continue creating, to make great works like Michaelanglo’s Sistine Chapel that has lasted the ages can continue to be creating and give a beautiful meaning to life and representation of a further purpose. The second artist he mentions, Quattrocento created works of dreamy images that also gave the speaker thoughts of the eternal. Then he calls up artists and poets, which both include Blake and more than one are followers of Blake, which makes good sense in this context. Blake was not only a master, but his strong faith and works of faith fit in perfectly. The speaker doesn’t just want art for art’s sake, he wants it to have meaning, to show people that there is more beyond this existence and to give a spark to life.
Finally, in part 6, the poem focuses on Yeats himself, his life, his grave and epitaph. In responding, expand on these notes, quoting to support your commentary. As I say in the schedule, we'll come back to this poem when we get to W.H. Auden's "In Memory of W.B. Yeats."
It’s rather morbid honestly, I couldn’t imaging writing something about my grave like this. I feel here again, he wishes to push for a lack of vanity in himself. He wants his grave simple, “No marble, no conventional phrase” At his grave he wants the words, “Cast a cold eye/On life, on death.//Horseman, pass by!” I feel that he is still pushing for us to think about more than just living and existing, to actually work to make something of oneself and to give a meaning to life. Also I feel he suggests we should not fear death, as possibly the speaker no longer does. By this point, I know Yeats had buried many friends, so I feel he has come to accept it in this.
On the first 3 parts, isn't Yeats' speaker actually focusing on the continuum of Irish history and culture, placing that within the context of the whole of history, and suggesting that when Irishmen dies, they become a part of that history, that culture? And isn't he tracging Irish history to his time? Doesn't this tie it better to the next part, on the history of art, placing Irish art within it?
Also, on the directions to poets, isn't he adressing Irish poets, calling on them to preserve and promote Irish culture?
Also rethink/reread the ending in this context.
The Second Coming
"The Second Coming," as I said above, illustrates Yeats' theory of history repeating itself in a rising and narrowing spiral, on different planes of reality. Use this (and the footnote) to discuss what the poem suggests (and how) about the (1919) present it represents--about the way in which the speaker sees this age as a repetition, with difference, of the advent of Christ.
His suggestion of the Second Coming at this time makes good sense. The whole of Europe is recovering from one World War and have little clue of the one to follow it soon after. Ireland itself has gone through some Hellish times by way of the rebellion shaking things up and were at that time dealing with the Anglo-Irish War itself. “Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world” sounds like a good way to put it. The world at Christ’s birth was also rather chaotic and much of the power (I believe, from what I recall of history) that much of the power was held by one empire (Rome) which maybe at this point he equates with England not purely because they are a super power (they took a big hit in the war and I think this is about the time America was coming into its “super power” status), but also because England has such a hold on Ireland and wishes to squash out rebellion and not allow questioning. This is a time of change, as was the time of Christ. The speaker feels like this is all building up to something, and his idea of this something is the Anti-Christ.
Decent reading of the poem's inspiration, though I think you get a bit too much into the England/America thing here. Aren't the most interesting aspects of this the view of history as a spiral and the poem's prophetic nature: the view of what's coming as the work of an antichrist (history repeating itself as tragedy)?
His suggestion of the Second Coming at this time makes good sense. The whole of Europe is recovering from one World War and have little clue of the one to follow it soon after. Ireland itself has gone through some Hellish times by way of the rebellion shaking things up and were at that time dealing with the Anglo-Irish War itself. “Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world” sounds like a good way to put it. The world at Christ’s birth was also rather chaotic and much of the power (I believe, from what I recall of history) that much of the power was held by one empire (Rome) which maybe at this point he equates with England not purely because they are a super power (they took a big hit in the war and I think this is about the time America was coming into its “super power” status), but also because England has such a hold on Ireland and wishes to squash out rebellion and not allow questioning. This is a time of change, as was the time of Christ. The speaker feels like this is all building up to something, and his idea of this something is the Anti-Christ.
Decent reading of the poem's inspiration, though I think you get a bit too much into the England/America thing here. Aren't the most interesting aspects of this the view of history as a spiral and the poem's prophetic nature: the view of what's coming as the work of an antichrist (history repeating itself as tragedy)?
The Wild Swans at Coole
The "poem idea" of "The Wild Swans at Coole" is a return. In it, the speaker has returned to a place 19 years after his last visit. What has changed (in the scene and the speaker)? How does the speaker feel about this?
--
It’s interesting that he visits in the fall as that is very much a time of change in itself. That isn’t actually a change for his view, however, considering his original visit was also in the fall. The primary change in the place he’s visiting is the swans. His first visit, he couldn’t count everyone before they flew off. Then this time he gets an exact point, 59, which we can assume is less considering he was able to make the point. Though perhaps the swans are also older and more subdued in age, not skitting off in fear of some stranger. The speaker sees his own aging and changing though as he considers the change in the amount of swans. He recalls that he had “trod with a lighter tread” then and now that there are fewer swans, and says that “my heart is sore” suggesting it’s simply or them, but ti is for everything, how things all change. At first I thought his wondering where the swans would go when they had left him had meant his death, giving the impression of his own immortality, but I feel now that it’s a matter of lose. He takes it well though, knowing his lose is another man’s gain, even though he might not be exactly pleased with this.
I can tell you're not up to snuff from the spelling in this, but good on that the poem is really about the speakers' sense of loss, and VERY good on the last part--minus quotes.
--
It’s interesting that he visits in the fall as that is very much a time of change in itself. That isn’t actually a change for his view, however, considering his original visit was also in the fall. The primary change in the place he’s visiting is the swans. His first visit, he couldn’t count everyone before they flew off. Then this time he gets an exact point, 59, which we can assume is less considering he was able to make the point. Though perhaps the swans are also older and more subdued in age, not skitting off in fear of some stranger. The speaker sees his own aging and changing though as he considers the change in the amount of swans. He recalls that he had “trod with a lighter tread” then and now that there are fewer swans, and says that “my heart is sore” suggesting it’s simply or them, but ti is for everything, how things all change. At first I thought his wondering where the swans would go when they had left him had meant his death, giving the impression of his own immortality, but I feel now that it’s a matter of lose. He takes it well though, knowing his lose is another man’s gain, even though he might not be exactly pleased with this.
I can tell you're not up to snuff from the spelling in this, but good on that the poem is really about the speakers' sense of loss, and VERY good on the last part--minus quotes.
The Mark on the Wall
"The Mark on the Wall" is an excerpt from a collection of autobiographical essays titled Monday or Tuesday, which Woolf published in 1921. I include it here, because it's the best example in our book of Woolf's use of stream of consciousness. In responding to it, focus on the way the narrator's mind flits from impression to thought to memory to impression, and so on.
The stream of consciousness writing is interesting. I learned about this process in poetry when I was in high school and wrote some terrible terrible things that I don’t care to look back on. But I’m familiar with this! Woolf does it beautifully. Without considering who we’d be reading, when I saw that it would be a matter of stream of consciousness, I expected it to be a pain and difficult to read because of jumping from thought to thought. But Woolf is a master of it. She flows from talking about this unknown mark on the wall into an idol daydream she’s had since childhood, the past residents of the house, things she’s lost in her lifetime, babes and giants even, but continues to return to this mark. With all this thinking, all these ideas that came from some smudge on the wall, the end honestly is so startling that I laughed out loud. Of all the things she’d thought of what the mark could be, all the ideas it inspired in the speaker, it turns out to be a snail and this is told her by someone else entirely. Frankly, if this is truly how Woolf found her mind working, it’s no wonder she was such an excellent writer.
LOL on those "terrible terrible things":-)--but that showed you how hard it is to carry this off, and you see, too, that Woolf is a master (mistress?) of it.
We'll see this again in Joyce. Thinking of it as a fiction technique, how does it compare for you to the style, for example, of Dickens?
Here and in your reply to Aden, you focus on that very sudden and down-to-earth realization about the mark--but isn't the mark mainly a device which she uses as an occasion for the stream of consciousness?
The stream of consciousness writing is interesting. I learned about this process in poetry when I was in high school and wrote some terrible terrible things that I don’t care to look back on. But I’m familiar with this! Woolf does it beautifully. Without considering who we’d be reading, when I saw that it would be a matter of stream of consciousness, I expected it to be a pain and difficult to read because of jumping from thought to thought. But Woolf is a master of it. She flows from talking about this unknown mark on the wall into an idol daydream she’s had since childhood, the past residents of the house, things she’s lost in her lifetime, babes and giants even, but continues to return to this mark. With all this thinking, all these ideas that came from some smudge on the wall, the end honestly is so startling that I laughed out loud. Of all the things she’d thought of what the mark could be, all the ideas it inspired in the speaker, it turns out to be a snail and this is told her by someone else entirely. Frankly, if this is truly how Woolf found her mind working, it’s no wonder she was such an excellent writer.
LOL on those "terrible terrible things":-)--but that showed you how hard it is to carry this off, and you see, too, that Woolf is a master (mistress?) of it.
We'll see this again in Joyce. Thinking of it as a fiction technique, how does it compare for you to the style, for example, of Dickens?
Here and in your reply to Aden, you focus on that very sudden and down-to-earth realization about the mark--but isn't the mark mainly a device which she uses as an occasion for the stream of consciousness?
A Room of One's Own: Women
What does Woolf say a woman needs in order to be a writer? What is the larger meaning of this?
In order to become a writer, Woolf feels a woman needs her own money and a room of her own. I feel this means that a woman writer must be sure she is in a position in which she can provide these things without either being hindered. This is a statement of independence, privacy, and revolution. As she, or Mary of her tale rather, was leaving to write something down after a fine thought had occurred to her, when her path was interrupted, she lost the inspiration. Then Mary heads to the library of Oxbridge while again differently inspired, and is turned away because she is a lone woman and needs either introduction or accompaniment to make use of the facility. As the story progresses on, Mary finds that woman have been and still are quite limited in rights. With this, I feel that Woolf wishes women of her time to pursue what rights they have above their past generations and to strive for more for the next. How can a woman be a writer of any repute to do for herself if she cannot do for herself?
A bit hurried/slightly incoherent on this, but isn't it because she uses stream of consciousness here, too?
Good on the title and the 500 pounds as representing independence, on her creating the character of Mary (Seton, Beaton, etc.) as her example, and on the limited access of women to higher ed at the time (might have included the women's college here, too). Good, too, that you extend this to women's rights in general, but isn't her focus mainly on women as writers?
What did you think of the tale of Shakespeare's imaginary sister? I felt she described the consequences of what would happen should one not have a room of their own quite well. It was also neat that she enveloped a tragedy out of a family that produced tragedies. Also, what did you think of her views on money? I felt that she made a valid point that without money one may be bitter. If you are treated as an unequal, you would be drawn to write about your inequalities. With money, you may be inspired to write more fictitiously.
Good on the money thing, too, but see how that relates most to women?
In order to become a writer, Woolf feels a woman needs her own money and a room of her own. I feel this means that a woman writer must be sure she is in a position in which she can provide these things without either being hindered. This is a statement of independence, privacy, and revolution. As she, or Mary of her tale rather, was leaving to write something down after a fine thought had occurred to her, when her path was interrupted, she lost the inspiration. Then Mary heads to the library of Oxbridge while again differently inspired, and is turned away because she is a lone woman and needs either introduction or accompaniment to make use of the facility. As the story progresses on, Mary finds that woman have been and still are quite limited in rights. With this, I feel that Woolf wishes women of her time to pursue what rights they have above their past generations and to strive for more for the next. How can a woman be a writer of any repute to do for herself if she cannot do for herself?
A bit hurried/slightly incoherent on this, but isn't it because she uses stream of consciousness here, too?
Good on the title and the 500 pounds as representing independence, on her creating the character of Mary (Seton, Beaton, etc.) as her example, and on the limited access of women to higher ed at the time (might have included the women's college here, too). Good, too, that you extend this to women's rights in general, but isn't her focus mainly on women as writers?
What did you think of the tale of Shakespeare's imaginary sister? I felt she described the consequences of what would happen should one not have a room of their own quite well. It was also neat that she enveloped a tragedy out of a family that produced tragedies. Also, what did you think of her views on money? I felt that she made a valid point that without money one may be bitter. If you are treated as an unequal, you would be drawn to write about your inequalities. With money, you may be inspired to write more fictitiously.
Good on the money thing, too, but see how that relates most to women?
A Room of One's Own
Why does she include the meals at the two Colleges? What do they show about the status of women in her time?
The two meals show the great contrast in the two schools quickly and in a manner that can be easily related to. Everyone eats and it’s not difficult to see the difference in such things. Oxbridge has grand food and a fancy desert that she can’t even give a name to as “to call it pudding and so relate it to rice and tapioca would be an insult.” The whole dinner was leisurely, though the lose of something was evident when comparing the discussion to times before the war, that maybe people cannot relate to each other and artistry in general the same way as what was then new is not as flowing, but darker and with in more simple speech without flowery beautiful language. Then at the Fernham we see a different sort of dinner and discussion. There was no desert, the biscuits were dry, and the soup so thin that “one could have seen through the transparent liquid any pattern that there might have been on the plate itself. But there was no pattern.” I feel that properly describes the dinner. Then there was no talk of leisure, only leaving to allow the dining hall to be made ready for the morning meal. This makes me feel there was little discussion or relaxation, this was a meal to feed the stomach and not the mind. This seems very unfair when comparing the two meals. The inequality in the sexes is glaringly obvious here.
Good here on the contrast between the meals, and especially good on the lack of conversation at Fernham.
See my reply to Ash on this about the historical context, with regard to women and higher education.
I'd really like your reaction/response to her Judith Shakespeare story.
The two meals show the great contrast in the two schools quickly and in a manner that can be easily related to. Everyone eats and it’s not difficult to see the difference in such things. Oxbridge has grand food and a fancy desert that she can’t even give a name to as “to call it pudding and so relate it to rice and tapioca would be an insult.” The whole dinner was leisurely, though the lose of something was evident when comparing the discussion to times before the war, that maybe people cannot relate to each other and artistry in general the same way as what was then new is not as flowing, but darker and with in more simple speech without flowery beautiful language. Then at the Fernham we see a different sort of dinner and discussion. There was no desert, the biscuits were dry, and the soup so thin that “one could have seen through the transparent liquid any pattern that there might have been on the plate itself. But there was no pattern.” I feel that properly describes the dinner. Then there was no talk of leisure, only leaving to allow the dining hall to be made ready for the morning meal. This makes me feel there was little discussion or relaxation, this was a meal to feed the stomach and not the mind. This seems very unfair when comparing the two meals. The inequality in the sexes is glaringly obvious here.
Good here on the contrast between the meals, and especially good on the lack of conversation at Fernham.
See my reply to Ash on this about the historical context, with regard to women and higher education.
I'd really like your reaction/response to her Judith Shakespeare story.
Tradition and the Individual Talent
"Tradition and the Individual Talent" is about what the title says--how and how far the modern poet (Eliot's target audience) is and should be influenced by the entire literary tradition. Focus on this in your response.
Eliot feels there is a lack of tradition unless it’s taken to be compared with what I’ll call modern or new, as in “this is too traditional” or “so-and-so’s work is traditional”, however, the old and dead poets still have their presence known in more modern works. Should we approach a work looking for what makes it more independent of its predecessors or inspirations, we would often miss out on what might truly give if live and individuality, that being what in it that harkens back to those very predecessors. Meaning that these modern poets have taken what they’ve learned, perhaps even from tradition sources, and while it is still very much their own, the inspiration or backing of the technique or word usage, or something makes it obvious that the poets of the past have been studied. However, one cannot just stand on the shoulders of great poets, one much Take in the source material and truly learn and understand it. I think one of the most significant points made here is this: “Someone said: ‘The dead writers are remote from us because we know so much more than they did.’ Precisely, and they are that which we know.”
Good grasp of Eliot's two takes on tradition in this, and especially of his more postive (and difficult) take--and very good quote at the end:-).
Any thoughts on what he says of the necessity of the poet extinguishing his personality in his poetry?
How about how the first applies to Eliot's own poetry and the second to both Eliot's and Browning's, whom Eliot admired? Also, can you see how the second point hearkens back to Keats' idea of the "cameleon poet?"
Eliot feels there is a lack of tradition unless it’s taken to be compared with what I’ll call modern or new, as in “this is too traditional” or “so-and-so’s work is traditional”, however, the old and dead poets still have their presence known in more modern works. Should we approach a work looking for what makes it more independent of its predecessors or inspirations, we would often miss out on what might truly give if live and individuality, that being what in it that harkens back to those very predecessors. Meaning that these modern poets have taken what they’ve learned, perhaps even from tradition sources, and while it is still very much their own, the inspiration or backing of the technique or word usage, or something makes it obvious that the poets of the past have been studied. However, one cannot just stand on the shoulders of great poets, one much Take in the source material and truly learn and understand it. I think one of the most significant points made here is this: “Someone said: ‘The dead writers are remote from us because we know so much more than they did.’ Precisely, and they are that which we know.”
Good grasp of Eliot's two takes on tradition in this, and especially of his more postive (and difficult) take--and very good quote at the end:-).
Any thoughts on what he says of the necessity of the poet extinguishing his personality in his poetry?
How about how the first applies to Eliot's own poetry and the second to both Eliot's and Browning's, whom Eliot admired? Also, can you see how the second point hearkens back to Keats' idea of the "cameleon poet?"
Endgame
As for the prompts on this, simply make notes on your evolving reaction to the play as you read it, and then post these and your overall reaction.
I read Godot in high school, and I can certainly feel this is the same writer. The play starts strangely, with Clov checking out what’s outside the windows and in the trash cans. Knowing Hamm’s parents are in them, I sort of understand the humor in looking in, but I’m hoping to understand that better when they come in to play. The interaction between Clov and Hamm is fun, you can tell Clov is used to this treatment, but he still doesn’t care for it. Hamm seems to not know the proper state of things. He forgets that the world is changed at times, but other times he recalls clearly. Nell and Nagg are oddly endearing. They still feel for each other, trying, but failing to kiss as they do. They’ve also forgotten much and are assumedly in worse shape than their son and his servant considering they’re physically in trash cans. The trousers story was funny in a very dry sort of way.
When Clov examines the outside with a telescope, we learn that they are near the sea, but that there is nothing there really. No waves, no sun, all grey. It’s bleak, but makes good sense for this. It’s some sort of end of times where everything isn’t leaving in vibrant explosions, but just ceasing and rotting away. When Clov finds a flea, Hamm says “But humanity might start from there all over again!” and then he insists it killed. This makes no sense. But then, Hamm must not want humanity to renew, he must want it to complete and end as it is doing.
We come to find that Clov has served Hamm since he was small. Yet he will still leave if he had the combination to the cupboard. Hamm tells him to kill him that he’ll give him the combination, but Clov won’t kill him though he still insists he’ll leave. Which then leads to the confusing question of how would Hamm know that Clov had left instead of simply dying.
Hamm’s story feels disjointed, but that’s because of him more than the story itself I feel. He gets distracted mostly by criticizing how he puts things “Nicely put that” “A bit feeble, that.” His story is about a man asking him for bread and then corn for his boy. Hamm denies him this and goes on about how things won’t improve. Use your head, can’t you, use your head, you’re on earth, there’s no cure for that!” “But what in God’s name do you imagine? That the earth will awake in spring?” Instead he offers to take the man in as a servant, but the man asks if he will take on his son as well. Perhaps the boy was Clov?
This entire time Hamm is terribly rude to his parents. He tells them to quiet down, promises his father a sugar plum when there is none. His father understands that it’s like a role reversal for them, but he also feels that things will reverse once more. Considering Hamm is stuck in the chair, I feel this is very possible. When he picked up talking again in another monologue after Nell turns out dead, he suggests that maybe he’d crawl along the floor on his stomach to escape and plead for help, mirroring the image of the man that had gone to him before. He even says he will call for his father and son, though what son? Maybe Clov, considering he had earlier said he’d been like a father to him.
In the end, Clov did leave after spotting another person outside. Hamm was left alone, when he called to his father the man did not appear, so he was quite possibly dead as well.
This is a strange but interesting play. It’s sort of different from Waiting For Godot in that that one was about waiting for the action, a great deal of action has happened already. We are also waiting for someone to get up the nerve to leave. I’d love to see this performed or be involved in a production of it. There so much going on without anything really going on at all. The relationship between Hamm and his father is strained dreadfully, even in this decomposing state, Nell and Nagg still love each other and wish to be with one another, especially Nagg because we can see that Nell is getting towards her end and is the least lucid of the lot. Then the relationship between Clov and Hamm is strange. Clov threatens to leave constantly and Hamm doesn’t always believe him, or so he says. They are not just servant and master, but like father and son and vice versa. While Hamm took Clov in, Clov is the one that takes care of Hamm.
Good reading of the play, especially on the post-apocalyptic--though long after the apocalypse--setting, the relations between the characters, their various states, Hamm's (non)sense, and the hints at the backstory.
Good on the humor in it, too--Becket was a Vaudeville fan.
Having gotten all of this, as I asked Ash & Erica, what, if anything, does this play say about the human condition and human relationships in general?
Your comment about seeing the play in performance: couldn't you see the video?
I read Godot in high school, and I can certainly feel this is the same writer. The play starts strangely, with Clov checking out what’s outside the windows and in the trash cans. Knowing Hamm’s parents are in them, I sort of understand the humor in looking in, but I’m hoping to understand that better when they come in to play. The interaction between Clov and Hamm is fun, you can tell Clov is used to this treatment, but he still doesn’t care for it. Hamm seems to not know the proper state of things. He forgets that the world is changed at times, but other times he recalls clearly. Nell and Nagg are oddly endearing. They still feel for each other, trying, but failing to kiss as they do. They’ve also forgotten much and are assumedly in worse shape than their son and his servant considering they’re physically in trash cans. The trousers story was funny in a very dry sort of way.
When Clov examines the outside with a telescope, we learn that they are near the sea, but that there is nothing there really. No waves, no sun, all grey. It’s bleak, but makes good sense for this. It’s some sort of end of times where everything isn’t leaving in vibrant explosions, but just ceasing and rotting away. When Clov finds a flea, Hamm says “But humanity might start from there all over again!” and then he insists it killed. This makes no sense. But then, Hamm must not want humanity to renew, he must want it to complete and end as it is doing.
We come to find that Clov has served Hamm since he was small. Yet he will still leave if he had the combination to the cupboard. Hamm tells him to kill him that he’ll give him the combination, but Clov won’t kill him though he still insists he’ll leave. Which then leads to the confusing question of how would Hamm know that Clov had left instead of simply dying.
Hamm’s story feels disjointed, but that’s because of him more than the story itself I feel. He gets distracted mostly by criticizing how he puts things “Nicely put that” “A bit feeble, that.” His story is about a man asking him for bread and then corn for his boy. Hamm denies him this and goes on about how things won’t improve. Use your head, can’t you, use your head, you’re on earth, there’s no cure for that!” “But what in God’s name do you imagine? That the earth will awake in spring?” Instead he offers to take the man in as a servant, but the man asks if he will take on his son as well. Perhaps the boy was Clov?
This entire time Hamm is terribly rude to his parents. He tells them to quiet down, promises his father a sugar plum when there is none. His father understands that it’s like a role reversal for them, but he also feels that things will reverse once more. Considering Hamm is stuck in the chair, I feel this is very possible. When he picked up talking again in another monologue after Nell turns out dead, he suggests that maybe he’d crawl along the floor on his stomach to escape and plead for help, mirroring the image of the man that had gone to him before. He even says he will call for his father and son, though what son? Maybe Clov, considering he had earlier said he’d been like a father to him.
In the end, Clov did leave after spotting another person outside. Hamm was left alone, when he called to his father the man did not appear, so he was quite possibly dead as well.
This is a strange but interesting play. It’s sort of different from Waiting For Godot in that that one was about waiting for the action, a great deal of action has happened already. We are also waiting for someone to get up the nerve to leave. I’d love to see this performed or be involved in a production of it. There so much going on without anything really going on at all. The relationship between Hamm and his father is strained dreadfully, even in this decomposing state, Nell and Nagg still love each other and wish to be with one another, especially Nagg because we can see that Nell is getting towards her end and is the least lucid of the lot. Then the relationship between Clov and Hamm is strange. Clov threatens to leave constantly and Hamm doesn’t always believe him, or so he says. They are not just servant and master, but like father and son and vice versa. While Hamm took Clov in, Clov is the one that takes care of Hamm.
Good reading of the play, especially on the post-apocalyptic--though long after the apocalypse--setting, the relations between the characters, their various states, Hamm's (non)sense, and the hints at the backstory.
Good on the humor in it, too--Becket was a Vaudeville fan.
Having gotten all of this, as I asked Ash & Erica, what, if anything, does this play say about the human condition and human relationships in general?
Your comment about seeing the play in performance: couldn't you see the video?
Saturday, April 17, 2010
The Journey of the Magi
"The Journey of the Magi" is Eliot's take on the birth of Christianity, so for this, I want you to go back and reread Browning's "Karshish" and Swinburne's "Hymn to Proserpine." Then tell us how this poem compares to those in terms of perspective (speaker, location, time) and attitude toward the event. Be careful about identifying speaker and author here: Eliot was a DEVOUT Anglican Christian.
The speaker is one of the Wise Men, the three kings that were to have witnessed the birth of Jesus Christ and given him presents. The trip was hard at times, but he does not regret it when looking back upon it. Seeing the Birth has changed him, called him to a different god from that of his people. This is why when he returns to his home, “[He] should be glad of another death.” I feel he was referring to his own when he will go to Heaven and be united with his God. Of course, maybe it’s a reference to Jesus’s later death that saves all of them.
I feel that this is very different from the previous pieces. “Karshish” took the point of view of an educated man who was taking Christianity with the logic of such a character. “Hymn” felt that this new religion was going to just leave out one day. I feel that the speaker in “Journey” has already accepted Christianity on to himself by the point we as the reader meet him. He might have almost felt forced into it by what he had witnessed with the Birth, feeling a sort of Death within him for his former beliefs. The speaker of “Hymn” wouldn’t hear of giving up his beliefs for some new religion trying to slip into his life. Then with “Karshish” I don’t think it was as much him feeling any one way on the religion itself as much as the facts of the situation.
First, take another look at at least the last lines of "Karshish"--isn't he INTRIGUED with the Christ idea?
Decent on "Hymn."
On this--interesting that you say this Magus was "forced into" his belief: what makes you say that? I didn't ask Ash or Erica about this, but what do you think of his rather lukewarm reaction to the Nativity?
An otherwise good read of his conflicting emotions: as I DID ask Ash or Erica, what do you think Eliot, a devout Christian, was trying to say or do with this poem?
The speaker is one of the Wise Men, the three kings that were to have witnessed the birth of Jesus Christ and given him presents. The trip was hard at times, but he does not regret it when looking back upon it. Seeing the Birth has changed him, called him to a different god from that of his people. This is why when he returns to his home, “[He] should be glad of another death.” I feel he was referring to his own when he will go to Heaven and be united with his God. Of course, maybe it’s a reference to Jesus’s later death that saves all of them.
I feel that this is very different from the previous pieces. “Karshish” took the point of view of an educated man who was taking Christianity with the logic of such a character. “Hymn” felt that this new religion was going to just leave out one day. I feel that the speaker in “Journey” has already accepted Christianity on to himself by the point we as the reader meet him. He might have almost felt forced into it by what he had witnessed with the Birth, feeling a sort of Death within him for his former beliefs. The speaker of “Hymn” wouldn’t hear of giving up his beliefs for some new religion trying to slip into his life. Then with “Karshish” I don’t think it was as much him feeling any one way on the religion itself as much as the facts of the situation.
First, take another look at at least the last lines of "Karshish"--isn't he INTRIGUED with the Christ idea?
Decent on "Hymn."
On this--interesting that you say this Magus was "forced into" his belief: what makes you say that? I didn't ask Ash or Erica about this, but what do you think of his rather lukewarm reaction to the Nativity?
An otherwise good read of his conflicting emotions: as I DID ask Ash or Erica, what do you think Eliot, a devout Christian, was trying to say or do with this poem?
The Wasteland: The Burial For The Dead
"The Wasteland" is a difficult (highly academic) poem, but I think you can get the general idea and mood of it. Click here to listen to (and read along with) Eliot's reading of the first section, "The Burial of the Dead." Then pick ANY section of the poem and tell us what it says, what it describes, and the mood it conveys. Remember that this is a primary document in literary modernism.
“The Burial For the Dead” I feel isn’t as much about burial as it is about death and the disturbance of such a state, maybe something like resurrection. The first lines “April is the cruelest month, breeding//Lilacs out of the dead land” illustrates this thinking well. The spring is breathing life into the dead land, but no one has said this dead land wants for it. “Winter kept us warm, covering//Earth in forgetful snow” The speaker preferred the state of death to the state of life that the spring time is known to bring about. The speaker had good memories from this season, like drinking coffee and chatting for an hour and staying with their cousin and sledding. The images he presents also associate with death, but the one that rings clearly to me in the end in relation to death and resurrection is when he asks Stetson, “That corpse you planted last year in your garden,//Has it begun to sprout? Will it bloom this year?//Or has the sudden frost disturbed its bed?”
Very clever quoting here on the death/ressurection theme you see (and it's there, but see the end of the poem--not a simply Christian take on this): I chuckled at your use if the last lines.
However, aren't there several different speakers here? And what does the poem say about modern life and society?
“The Burial For the Dead” I feel isn’t as much about burial as it is about death and the disturbance of such a state, maybe something like resurrection. The first lines “April is the cruelest month, breeding//Lilacs out of the dead land” illustrates this thinking well. The spring is breathing life into the dead land, but no one has said this dead land wants for it. “Winter kept us warm, covering//Earth in forgetful snow” The speaker preferred the state of death to the state of life that the spring time is known to bring about. The speaker had good memories from this season, like drinking coffee and chatting for an hour and staying with their cousin and sledding. The images he presents also associate with death, but the one that rings clearly to me in the end in relation to death and resurrection is when he asks Stetson, “That corpse you planted last year in your garden,//Has it begun to sprout? Will it bloom this year?//Or has the sudden frost disturbed its bed?”
Very clever quoting here on the death/ressurection theme you see (and it's there, but see the end of the poem--not a simply Christian take on this): I chuckled at your use if the last lines.
However, aren't there several different speakers here? And what does the poem say about modern life and society?
The Love Song of J Alfred Prufrock
"The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" is, as we can tell from the title (the name of the "singer"), a VERY ODD Love Song. Click here to listen to Eliot reading the poem as you read along. Once done, tell us about the speaker in the poem: What is his mood? What causes it? What does he tell us of his inability to act on his passions--or perhaps to HAVE passions?
I have a long standing relationship with Eliot and this particular poem, so here's hoping I can to this thing justice. Prufrock was a Forensics piece for me in my Senior year. A strange selection for an 18 year old girl at the time, I know, but my teacher helped me choose it and I liked it.
The poem is from an aging man observing his surroundings. He and his partner are wandering alone. They are restless, or at the very least he is, "The muttering retreats//Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels" He asks her not to question what they have and what they do, "Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?'//Let us go and make our visit." I feel his restlessness comes from his age and insecurity of it. While he can not stay still himself, he knows "indeed there will be time" for all things. Again we see his restlessness, "And times yet for a hundred indecisions//And for a hundred visions and revisions." He feels he will be judged in these times of his aging, "They will say: 'How his hair is growing thin!'" "They will say: 'but how his arms and legs are thin!'" because he feels they all notice and they all will judge him for how he has grown old. Even for as how he worries about his age, he acknowledged that he is old, that he has seen many things. "For I have known them all already, known them all-//Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons". One of the most vivid examples of Prufrock's fear of being judged is here:
How should he start to explain his life and his feelings or thoughts? How will his life add up to others? He doesn't know what's expected of him when he is there being judged by the world. Still, he knows that these concerns aren't important in the long run. "Though I have seen my head (grown slightly bald) brought in upon a platter,//I am no prophet- And here's no great matter." He knows in the end, he is insignificant . "I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,//And I seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,//And in short, I was afraid."
Yes--odd for a young girl's forensics exercise, but glad you liked.
Good reading here, except in the identification of the audience--gender is not specified, and isn't the audience whoever reads it?
Again, I have no other bones to pick with your reading, though I'd like your thoughts on what this poem says about modern (circa 1920s) love and romance, or whatever else you think Eliot was trying to do/show in writing it.
OH--and how about the final lines and his self-comparison to charaters in Hamlet?
I have a long standing relationship with Eliot and this particular poem, so here's hoping I can to this thing justice. Prufrock was a Forensics piece for me in my Senior year. A strange selection for an 18 year old girl at the time, I know, but my teacher helped me choose it and I liked it.
The poem is from an aging man observing his surroundings. He and his partner are wandering alone. They are restless, or at the very least he is, "The muttering retreats//Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels" He asks her not to question what they have and what they do, "Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?'//Let us go and make our visit." I feel his restlessness comes from his age and insecurity of it. While he can not stay still himself, he knows "indeed there will be time" for all things. Again we see his restlessness, "And times yet for a hundred indecisions//And for a hundred visions and revisions." He feels he will be judged in these times of his aging, "They will say: 'How his hair is growing thin!'" "They will say: 'but how his arms and legs are thin!'" because he feels they all notice and they all will judge him for how he has grown old. Even for as how he worries about his age, he acknowledged that he is old, that he has seen many things. "For I have known them all already, known them all-//Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons". One of the most vivid examples of Prufrock's fear of being judged is here:
"And I have known the eyes already, known them all-
The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase.
And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
then how should I begin
To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?
And how should I presume?"
How should he start to explain his life and his feelings or thoughts? How will his life add up to others? He doesn't know what's expected of him when he is there being judged by the world. Still, he knows that these concerns aren't important in the long run. "Though I have seen my head (grown slightly bald) brought in upon a platter,//I am no prophet- And here's no great matter." He knows in the end, he is insignificant . "I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,//And I seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,//And in short, I was afraid."
Yes--odd for a young girl's forensics exercise, but glad you liked.
Good reading here, except in the identification of the audience--gender is not specified, and isn't the audience whoever reads it?
Again, I have no other bones to pick with your reading, though I'd like your thoughts on what this poem says about modern (circa 1920s) love and romance, or whatever else you think Eliot was trying to do/show in writing it.
OH--and how about the final lines and his self-comparison to charaters in Hamlet?
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)
