While Nichol’s works from what’s she’s experienced in the Caribbean, her poems I feel still hold a lot of fun and interesting stories for all children. I loved “Banana Man” personally. Lots of kids love bananas and this is a silly way to talk about it, referring to bunches of bananas as hands. Here the rhyming isn’t a regular line by line pattern. The rhymes themselves are repeating still and they show another sort of rhyming instead of the classic ABAB or AABB styles. The language is more relaxed, less formal and as many of Nichol’s poems, it’s almost a sort of slang that can be relaxed into. Kids can have fun reading these! For a fun activity after, you can discuss favorite fruits and maybe how different fruit looks like different body parts or different things in general.
See mt comment above on the language/culture thing, but cute idea with this poem.
Any (brief) idea for a poetry month exhibit in the children's section of a library?
Thursday, May 13, 2010
Something I found significant an interesting about Clifton’s poetry is that she kept to one main character, Everett Anderson. While none of the previous poetry we touched on here made specific mention of race, these ones make specific mention of Everett and his family being African American. I think this adds to the character and gives us as teachers and parents something significantly different from the heavily British lot we had just been reviewing. The introduction says that Clifton wishes to express the “pain and fear experienced by a young African American child” but at least in these excerpts, I feel these poems could relate to many children regardless of race.
“Tuesday All Day Rain” is a silly poem about Everett Anderson leaving his umbrella at home instead of taking it out to protect himself from the rain because he doesn’t want to lose it. The idea is so child-like, the best way to keep yourself from losing your umbrella is to simply leave it at home. The rhyming here is a little different; the lines are choppy, but this adds to the flow of things, the quick movement of the words.
We see it’s carried into the next stanza at times instead of all being self contained in one stanza and merely carried over into the next one. I think this pulls the poem together nicely and makes you feel like you need to finish the poem and say it all together. Of course, this leads you to think I normally don’t read poems all together as one piece, which no, I don’t always. Kids can talk about times they’ve left their things at home instead of taking them with them and what happened in the end.
Good reading of this poem, and nice realization of your own tendencies when reading poetry. There are other collections that focus on one character. On the race thing, coudn't these poems also be used, like the Mora (missing these) and Nichols, to introduce kids to other cultures?
“Tuesday All Day Rain” is a silly poem about Everett Anderson leaving his umbrella at home instead of taking it out to protect himself from the rain because he doesn’t want to lose it. The idea is so child-like, the best way to keep yourself from losing your umbrella is to simply leave it at home. The rhyming here is a little different; the lines are choppy, but this adds to the flow of things, the quick movement of the words.
“Rain or shine,
he doesn’t whine
about ‘catching cold’ or
‘summer showers.’
Sad or merry
he doesn’t carry
the thing around
for hours and hours”
We see it’s carried into the next stanza at times instead of all being self contained in one stanza and merely carried over into the next one. I think this pulls the poem together nicely and makes you feel like you need to finish the poem and say it all together. Of course, this leads you to think I normally don’t read poems all together as one piece, which no, I don’t always. Kids can talk about times they’ve left their things at home instead of taking them with them and what happened in the end.
Good reading of this poem, and nice realization of your own tendencies when reading poetry. There are other collections that focus on one character. On the race thing, coudn't these poems also be used, like the Mora (missing these) and Nichols, to introduce kids to other cultures?
These poems are all rather interesting. Something I find might be a hindrance at times is when poetry comes off as too British and too old fashioned. This doesn’t hurt the sound or the meaning, but it makes it unrelatable to the children that might be learning about it. This is just my feeling though, I feel like more updated writing would work better in schools and teachings today. While these are more up dated than others, I feel that these are still a bit too British. “Mrs. McPhee” I think would be a fun read for kids. This woman eats duckling, ducklings! That’s scandalous to a child, who would likely never eat a duckling. The women’s transformation is fun though, like a punishment for eating poor little baby ducks. The poem even plays with the sounds, especially at the end, “Said Mrs. Mac, Mrs. Quack,//Mrs. MacPhee.” It’s a fun poem and for a learning exercise, perhaps they could try to think up silly or not silly names that rhyme with duck sounds, like Mark Bark or something like that. With a more fun thing, maybe try cutting out paper feathers to glue to a cape so mommy or teacher could become Mrs. or Mr. MacPhee.”
Cute ideas here, but isn't Causley's language a bit more accessible than, say, De La Mare's?
Cute ideas here, but isn't Causley's language a bit more accessible than, say, De La Mare's?
De La Mare brought us another story previously, with his telling of a vane Little Red Riding Hood. Some of his other poems are also sort of dark, which shows a similar voice to what we saw with his previous story. I found his poetry sort of dull, I feel like it lost something in time. The rhyming does flow still, but many of the topics I feel kids would have more of a fun time just saying than actually knowing exactly what it’s about. “The Penny Owing” almost sounds like some sort of reaper or ghost coming with a final penny for blind Tam. Beggars are something we have today as well, so they could understand this enough, but I don’t think they’d see the same meaning as I do, which is fine still. Some of the words aren’t common ones for children, like “abide” and “grudged” so it can work for extending vocabulary as well. Again, maybe this could also introduce children to the idea of money and counting change, suggesting they save their pennies and such.
Aren't some of his poems a little lighter? Good, if general, on the vocabulary benefits and differing interpretations.
Aren't some of his poems a little lighter? Good, if general, on the vocabulary benefits and differing interpretations.
For Stevenson, I enjoyed his “Bed in Summer” because I feel that the topic is still very relatable to kids and people today. Many of us, especially children understand what it’s like to go to bed in the summer when it’s still light out when we would rather be outside playing. It’s a fun and easy poem that gives you the impression of a child bored in bed trying to force them to sleep, but not really succeeding at it. Anyone can relate. The flow of the language adds to the whimsy, with each stanza having rhyming pairs, a simple way to introduce kids to poetry because the sounds are so close together. “In winter I get up at night//And dress by yellow candle-light” Then the children could talk about their morning routines, maybe attempt to make up a rhyming couplet about it.
This collection is full of short but sweet poems. The author I’ve met earlier with her “Goblin Market” story that was an interesting and fun read in itself. Rosetti has a fine ear and the short poems have a lovely flow to me. The themes of motherhood and infant mortality mentioned in the introduction do ring true and do give pause, but I feel that for children’s poetry, they don’t always notice or take things as jarringly as we as adults might.
Here a child sleeps, but does not wake for weeks and weeks. Perhaps this child actually has died and the child that comes “weeks and weeks” later in his place is actually a second child “with his own pretty look”, but then maybe the child is actually terribly ill and returns to health again, which I can’t imagine was terribly common in the Victorian era, or in the least the awakened child would be greatly weaken and not live longer beyond this.
To actually use with children, I’d rather use something like “1 and I are 2-“ because as it also shows language skills, it can help with early math skills too. I recall using poems and rhymes to help with my math skills growing up, and I know those things are often hard for children to pick up. My mother and I were always on the search for pneumatic devices for remembering. Admittedly, some of the terms aren’t exactly commonly used these days, but they’re not entirely obscure. Also numbers are something children learn alongside their letters, so those are words they are already very familiar with. To make it more interactive, you can also insert other phrases. Instead of “3 and 3 are 6-//Barley sugar sticks.” Maybe try something like “3 and 3 and 6-//Sugar coated Kix.” Like the cereal!
Might the reawakening be in heaven? Rossetti WAS a devout Catholic.
“Our little baby fell asleep,
And may not wake again,
For days and days, and weeks and weeks;
But then he’ll wake again,
And come with his own pretty look,
And kiss Mamma again.”
Here a child sleeps, but does not wake for weeks and weeks. Perhaps this child actually has died and the child that comes “weeks and weeks” later in his place is actually a second child “with his own pretty look”, but then maybe the child is actually terribly ill and returns to health again, which I can’t imagine was terribly common in the Victorian era, or in the least the awakened child would be greatly weaken and not live longer beyond this.
To actually use with children, I’d rather use something like “1 and I are 2-“ because as it also shows language skills, it can help with early math skills too. I recall using poems and rhymes to help with my math skills growing up, and I know those things are often hard for children to pick up. My mother and I were always on the search for pneumatic devices for remembering. Admittedly, some of the terms aren’t exactly commonly used these days, but they’re not entirely obscure. Also numbers are something children learn alongside their letters, so those are words they are already very familiar with. To make it more interactive, you can also insert other phrases. Instead of “3 and 3 are 6-//Barley sugar sticks.” Maybe try something like “3 and 3 and 6-//Sugar coated Kix.” Like the cereal!
Might the reawakening be in heaven? Rossetti WAS a devout Catholic.
Lullabies and Baby Songs
On all, which do you remember from your own childhood? Others?
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I've actually heard "All the Pretty Little Horses" in a movie at Busch Gardens, the scary 4D film that was about the children going to the lighthouse. One of the ghosts sang it. I haven't heard any versions of it myself growing up though. If I had any lullabies growing up, it was "Rock-a-Bye Baby" or as they call it, "The Cradle Song".
It seems to me that the heavy repetitions in many of the lullabies, say “Sleep, baby, sleep!” is to help lull the child into a peaceful state. For the matter of storytelling, to show kids different tales I would use this because I like it. It’s a good example of the rhythms you see and the hint of darkness some have in the dog biting. This and “Wynken, Blynken, and Nod” because I did actually learn this one when I was in school years and always found it a fun adventurous sort of story. To actually use for my hypothetical child, I’d go with something calmer because honestly I think there’s plenty out there giving kids bits of fear in the media that it’s not as needed to tell a baby to be quiet or they’ll be bit by a dog. Maybe an older child who you could gently pinch and tease, who would find it fun. Not that “Cradle Song” isn’t dark, it’s a falling baby, but I feel like it’s more imaginative, further from the child’s realm of experience. Everyone falls at some point, sure, but eventually you'll learn from it and be less bothered each time. I don't feel like it's the same for dog bites.
Interesting focus here on the content of these (aside from the one remark about the repetition--and also other sounds--as calming to infants) and whether or not they'd scare children. All of these here are or were one time read or sung to infants--even those which made reference to disturbing things. Ay thoughts on this?
Also, any thoughts on how these might help infants with early language development?
Well, it was suggested in the introduction that the darker images were meant to frighten away the nightmares from the child's slumber. This I could believe and even embrace, but these days I'm not sure if it's still needed. Then again, it's the darkness of something that puts a little fear into a child's existence. And considering my term project, maybe I should touch on these as well?
When kids hear things enough, they learn them, pick out sounds and words eventually. I mean, that's part of why kids first words are thins like mama and dada, because it's basic sounds they hear constantly and eventually learn to associate properly with the indicated source.
On the first here, let's remember some of Bettelheim's ideas about the more disturbing situations and characters in fairy tales--the way they objectify fears or issues children already face (even if subconsciously) in a way that makes them safer to confront.
Good on the other, but extend that beyond mama and dada--further along the language development continuum.
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I've actually heard "All the Pretty Little Horses" in a movie at Busch Gardens, the scary 4D film that was about the children going to the lighthouse. One of the ghosts sang it. I haven't heard any versions of it myself growing up though. If I had any lullabies growing up, it was "Rock-a-Bye Baby" or as they call it, "The Cradle Song".
It seems to me that the heavy repetitions in many of the lullabies, say “Sleep, baby, sleep!” is to help lull the child into a peaceful state. For the matter of storytelling, to show kids different tales I would use this because I like it. It’s a good example of the rhythms you see and the hint of darkness some have in the dog biting. This and “Wynken, Blynken, and Nod” because I did actually learn this one when I was in school years and always found it a fun adventurous sort of story. To actually use for my hypothetical child, I’d go with something calmer because honestly I think there’s plenty out there giving kids bits of fear in the media that it’s not as needed to tell a baby to be quiet or they’ll be bit by a dog. Maybe an older child who you could gently pinch and tease, who would find it fun. Not that “Cradle Song” isn’t dark, it’s a falling baby, but I feel like it’s more imaginative, further from the child’s realm of experience. Everyone falls at some point, sure, but eventually you'll learn from it and be less bothered each time. I don't feel like it's the same for dog bites.
Interesting focus here on the content of these (aside from the one remark about the repetition--and also other sounds--as calming to infants) and whether or not they'd scare children. All of these here are or were one time read or sung to infants--even those which made reference to disturbing things. Ay thoughts on this?
Also, any thoughts on how these might help infants with early language development?
Well, it was suggested in the introduction that the darker images were meant to frighten away the nightmares from the child's slumber. This I could believe and even embrace, but these days I'm not sure if it's still needed. Then again, it's the darkness of something that puts a little fear into a child's existence. And considering my term project, maybe I should touch on these as well?
When kids hear things enough, they learn them, pick out sounds and words eventually. I mean, that's part of why kids first words are thins like mama and dada, because it's basic sounds they hear constantly and eventually learn to associate properly with the indicated source.
On the first here, let's remember some of Bettelheim's ideas about the more disturbing situations and characters in fairy tales--the way they objectify fears or issues children already face (even if subconsciously) in a way that makes them safer to confront.
Good on the other, but extend that beyond mama and dada--further along the language development continuum.
Riddles and Wordplay
On all, which do you remember from your own childhood? Others?
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I wish they had more in this section honestly. The ones they have are sort of old and not well known I don’t feel. Also I don’t think they make much sense, but riddles and word games are a thing of time. Even things I knew growing up have changed, or at least for kids. “What’s black and white and red all over?” I’d say a newspaper, but a site for kid’s riddles told me it was “a zebra with too much lipstick” But there are still classics like, “Why is 6 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9! (Seven ate nine)” I wouldn’t use the ones from our book and I wish I could find the books I remember from when I was in elementary school. I’d want fun ones that would get kids thinking. I’d indulge in a little potty humor, “What’s brown and makes a sound like a bell? Dung” but the main purpose would be to get minds moving, maybe even making up their own riddles!
Didn't you like any of the ones here? Yes, most are pretty tiime-bound, but the idea is pretty timeless--the what-am-I type of riddle goes back to Medieval literature.
LOL on those you mention here--especially that humorous twist on the newspaper one. I'll add another: What did the 0 say to the 8? Nice belt!
LOL on the potty humor, too.
Not really. I didn't find them very engaging.
This topic brought out some silly discussion in my house. I asked my mom "What's black and white and red all over?" because the answer I had found when googling was not "A newspaper" as I know it, but "A zebra with too much lipstick" and I had to stop to laugh. A silly answer works better for kids I guess. An old friend of mine told me when I asked her that riddle "A zebra with a sunburn." Now my mom showed her dark sense of humor with it and told me "a nun falling down the stairs" which blew me away. She knew the newspaper answer, but she swore to her that's what it had always been. It's crazy to see things change or get taken to strange and silly extents.
LOL on these. Yes, the silly stuff appeals to kids--a reason why nonsense verse also appeals.
Here's a grodey one: What's green and hangs? Elephant snot. A sillt one (two-parter): What did Tarzan say when he say the elephants coming? "Here come the elephants!" What dod Tarzan say when he saw the elephants coming wearing sunglasses? Nothing. He didn't recognize them.
Too bad you didn't like the ones in the book.
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I wish they had more in this section honestly. The ones they have are sort of old and not well known I don’t feel. Also I don’t think they make much sense, but riddles and word games are a thing of time. Even things I knew growing up have changed, or at least for kids. “What’s black and white and red all over?” I’d say a newspaper, but a site for kid’s riddles told me it was “a zebra with too much lipstick” But there are still classics like, “Why is 6 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9! (Seven ate nine)” I wouldn’t use the ones from our book and I wish I could find the books I remember from when I was in elementary school. I’d want fun ones that would get kids thinking. I’d indulge in a little potty humor, “What’s brown and makes a sound like a bell? Dung” but the main purpose would be to get minds moving, maybe even making up their own riddles!
Didn't you like any of the ones here? Yes, most are pretty tiime-bound, but the idea is pretty timeless--the what-am-I type of riddle goes back to Medieval literature.
LOL on those you mention here--especially that humorous twist on the newspaper one. I'll add another: What did the 0 say to the 8? Nice belt!
LOL on the potty humor, too.
Not really. I didn't find them very engaging.
This topic brought out some silly discussion in my house. I asked my mom "What's black and white and red all over?" because the answer I had found when googling was not "A newspaper" as I know it, but "A zebra with too much lipstick" and I had to stop to laugh. A silly answer works better for kids I guess. An old friend of mine told me when I asked her that riddle "A zebra with a sunburn." Now my mom showed her dark sense of humor with it and told me "a nun falling down the stairs" which blew me away. She knew the newspaper answer, but she swore to her that's what it had always been. It's crazy to see things change or get taken to strange and silly extents.
LOL on these. Yes, the silly stuff appeals to kids--a reason why nonsense verse also appeals.
Here's a grodey one: What's green and hangs? Elephant snot. A sillt one (two-parter): What did Tarzan say when he say the elephants coming? "Here come the elephants!" What dod Tarzan say when he saw the elephants coming wearing sunglasses? Nothing. He didn't recognize them.
Too bad you didn't like the ones in the book.
Playground Verse
On all, which do you remember from your own childhood? Others?
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I remember “Shortenin’ bread” but my version is different. The last verse they have I know, but not the rest and I can’t get it flowing as I know it from these words. I feel like this has also changed greatly over time. Playground verse as it’s given here I feel has turned into more like jump rope rhymes and clapping games.
And then counting out the jumps. Even that’s a little dated in my opinion, but that’s what I associate these with. I was terrible at jumping rope, but I loved watching. I think exposing kids to different versions of these sort of things is fun and could be interesting to them. It shows different cultures and what’s going on in some time periods. One of the clapping songs I still can’t find a good version of has different versions that involved Michael Jackson and King Kong.
If you can find that Michael Jackson/King Kong clapping song, post it.
Brian posted a longer version of the Cinderella song.
Actually, all of these were always jump rope, clapping or other activity-based rhymes, and, as Carrie notes, the activities, tied to the rhymes, get the brain as well as the body moving.
They ARE interesting from a cultural perspective, too--good material for ethnographic research.
I saw that! After googling around, I'm wondering if I'm recalling wrong or if my group of kids was just strange or mixing stuff up themselves. As soon as I posted this, I kicked myself for not bringing up my favorite clapping song, Miss Mary Mack!
I think the version I played was this one:
And we sat in this big circle with lots of kids. Everyone would sit cross legged with their hands on their knees touching the other kids hands, all palm up, everyone with a hand over lapping the kid next to them. On each syllable, one kid would clap their hand against the next kid, who would then do the same. When you were the last kid you had to move your hand out of the way, or you would be out. If you succeeded, then the kid that should have slapped your hand would be out. It was fun and got us all laughing and interacting.
The other version I found definitely shows more of the time period this came around. Or at least this version.
COOL clapping songs! Any thoughts on how they helped you--or might help other kids--develop language skills? See/hear any connections to rap here?
Which do (or would) you read to/with your own children and/or students and why? What would you want them to learn from these, and how would you help them learn it? (For teachers, again, objectives and activities.)
I remember “Shortenin’ bread” but my version is different. The last verse they have I know, but not the rest and I can’t get it flowing as I know it from these words. I feel like this has also changed greatly over time. Playground verse as it’s given here I feel has turned into more like jump rope rhymes and clapping games.
“Cinderella, dressed in yellow
Went upstairs to kiss her fellow
But goodness sake, it was a snake!
How many kisses did he take?”
And then counting out the jumps. Even that’s a little dated in my opinion, but that’s what I associate these with. I was terrible at jumping rope, but I loved watching. I think exposing kids to different versions of these sort of things is fun and could be interesting to them. It shows different cultures and what’s going on in some time periods. One of the clapping songs I still can’t find a good version of has different versions that involved Michael Jackson and King Kong.
If you can find that Michael Jackson/King Kong clapping song, post it.
Brian posted a longer version of the Cinderella song.
Actually, all of these were always jump rope, clapping or other activity-based rhymes, and, as Carrie notes, the activities, tied to the rhymes, get the brain as well as the body moving.
They ARE interesting from a cultural perspective, too--good material for ethnographic research.
I saw that! After googling around, I'm wondering if I'm recalling wrong or if my group of kids was just strange or mixing stuff up themselves. As soon as I posted this, I kicked myself for not bringing up my favorite clapping song, Miss Mary Mack!
I think the version I played was this one:
"Ooooh,
Down by the banks
Of the Hane-key Pan-ky
Where the bull-frogs jump
From bank to bank-key
With a hip, hop, soda pop
East side, west side
KER-PLOP!"
And we sat in this big circle with lots of kids. Everyone would sit cross legged with their hands on their knees touching the other kids hands, all palm up, everyone with a hand over lapping the kid next to them. On each syllable, one kid would clap their hand against the next kid, who would then do the same. When you were the last kid you had to move your hand out of the way, or you would be out. If you succeeded, then the kid that should have slapped your hand would be out. It was fun and got us all laughing and interacting.
The other version I found definitely shows more of the time period this came around. Or at least this version.
"Down by the banks of the hanky panky
Where the bull frogs jump from bank to bank
singin' Eeeps ipes opes oops
silly will ding dong
I pleage aligence to the flag
Michal Jackson makes me gag
Pepsi cola burt my butt
Now were talkin' 7 up
7 up has no caffine
now were talkin billy jean
Billy Jean is out of sight
now were talkin dynomite
dynomite blew up the school
Now were talkin' really cool
10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1"
COOL clapping songs! Any thoughts on how they helped you--or might help other kids--develop language skills? See/hear any connections to rap here?
How do you think young readers might benefit from reading stories of adventure--one in which a character or group undertakes a journey, facing and overcoming obstacles along the way? If you can recall an adventure story you read when younger, use that as an example.
This is something young readers might often find themselves doing in one form or another. The first day at school, going to a playground that’s unusual and eating lunch with strange kids that you don’t know, then later in life things like your first car trip driving alone or learning to socialize, these could all be situations in which you could relate experiences from adventure novels. Thinking of these brave individuals, like Winnie the Pooh and Christopher Robin off looking for honey and helping their friends or Robinson Crusoe living on his own on an island though he came from a good family back in York, it makes our more everyday tasks seem easier. When I was little I read The Boxcar Children. These were four siblings who all lived in a boxcar and had to take care of each other. I would play things out and say that our porch was my boxcar. Then at school after my friends and I watched X-Men or Power Rangers, we’d play around as if we were them. I feel like it helped us all learn to socialize and interact together better.
The best post so far on kid's tendencies to go on imaginary adventures and how that might make them "take" to adventure stories, AND on how adventure stories and make us see and approach life AS an adventure.
As I asked others,however, how does this differ from the benefits of literature in other genres (such as fantasy or sci fi) which contain (both group and individual*) adventures? What make adventure stories, in themselves, differ?
* The socialization thing also applies to any text in which characters depend on each other.
This is something young readers might often find themselves doing in one form or another. The first day at school, going to a playground that’s unusual and eating lunch with strange kids that you don’t know, then later in life things like your first car trip driving alone or learning to socialize, these could all be situations in which you could relate experiences from adventure novels. Thinking of these brave individuals, like Winnie the Pooh and Christopher Robin off looking for honey and helping their friends or Robinson Crusoe living on his own on an island though he came from a good family back in York, it makes our more everyday tasks seem easier. When I was little I read The Boxcar Children. These were four siblings who all lived in a boxcar and had to take care of each other. I would play things out and say that our porch was my boxcar. Then at school after my friends and I watched X-Men or Power Rangers, we’d play around as if we were them. I feel like it helped us all learn to socialize and interact together better.
The best post so far on kid's tendencies to go on imaginary adventures and how that might make them "take" to adventure stories, AND on how adventure stories and make us see and approach life AS an adventure.
As I asked others,however, how does this differ from the benefits of literature in other genres (such as fantasy or sci fi) which contain (both group and individual*) adventures? What make adventure stories, in themselves, differ?
* The socialization thing also applies to any text in which characters depend on each other.
For all three stories, our regular questions in one prompt: Pretend you're a teacher or parent (unless you are one). For what age groups are each of these stories most appropriate and why? How would you teach these stories to or share them with your students or children (for younger kids, focus on the Defoe or Milne; for older--but not too old--focus on the Konigsberg)? What would be your objectives? Activities to fulfill these?
I don’t feel like I’d want to work with Robinson Crusoe. While it’s a good story, I don’t like it because its form is so different from other writing that I would introduce to young people. The lack of separated dialogue really bothers me, but that might be personal choice there. The basic adventure of it is great and remarkable, there is something to be said for it being the first of its kind and one of the earliest examples of a novel with appeal to the young adult market, but I feel this telling is out of doubt terribly. If I wanted to use something like it, I’d probably go more for “The Swiss Family Robinson” which was inspired by DeFoe’s novel, while being written to teach the author’s children morals and self reliance. Not that children in this day and age will need some of the lessons that might have been more literal in the early 1900’s, but still. As an adventure book, its fine and good, just I feel there are better materials out there.
Having said that, all things considered I feel like it would be appropriate for children of maybe the 6-12 age range. This is when the child is learning their limits, how far they can take something and at what point they fail. The adventure story reinforces the independence they have already understood between 3-6 (version of this story might be good for that age range as well on the subject of independence.) and can encourage discussion of taking different methods to get to a certain end. What could Crusoe have done differently? How could he have handled the situation with Friday better? I really feel the story could use an update to be truly useful though. It can easily be used as a stepping stone to other adventure novels, like “The Swiss Family Robinson,” “Little House on the Prairie,” “Johnny Tremain” and book series like “The Boxcar Children.”
Winnie the Pooh is definitely excellent for the 3-6 age range. That’s when I recall Pooh being introduced to me. Many of the characters are very much like children themselves. Obviously Christopher Robin is a child, but he takes the lead here. Pooh is also like a child, but one that is almost younger and needs to be taught and explained to by Christopher Robin. The characters are similar to different parts of the child’s own feelings. Pooh is loyal and tries very hard, Rabbit is sort of grumpy, but he means well like a parents, poor Piglet is always frightened and is to be protected. Within these stories, a child could easily take on any role they wish safely. Pooh has such a rich history and it still well known today (I think it is at least!) so I feel like this would be easier to work with. Pooh is a kid friendly, lots of animals that you know and I feel it harkens back to the animal fables with a little less moral basis maybe. You could relate these characters to others from those stories, picking favorites and making suggestions for other characters, like maybe a Fox character or something fun. Children could draw out their favorite scenes or write their own song about their adventures.
Were you perhaps also put off by the racism in this version of "Crusoe?" (BTW: The designation of "Crusoe" as the first novel in English is shaky.)
You spend a LOT of time on this, and I'm curious as to why you didn't hook into the survival-on-a-deserted-island element.
LOL on Pooh being like animal fables with less of a moral message. Thing is, aren't these also Christopher's STUFFED animals? So how about getting young children to write about their adventures with those, especially since most of them have such imaginary adventures?
Sorry for not giving you a librarian prompt on these, but I bet it'd e easy to think of a library display ad/or activity with Pooh.
I'd like your response to the Konigsberg as well--maybe a lbrarian one, linked to the art: the Metropolitan Museum has a website.
BB tends to be "obnoxious" between midnight and 4 A.M.--they do backup--but initial posts in this class are always due on Wednesday.
I don’t feel like I’d want to work with Robinson Crusoe. While it’s a good story, I don’t like it because its form is so different from other writing that I would introduce to young people. The lack of separated dialogue really bothers me, but that might be personal choice there. The basic adventure of it is great and remarkable, there is something to be said for it being the first of its kind and one of the earliest examples of a novel with appeal to the young adult market, but I feel this telling is out of doubt terribly. If I wanted to use something like it, I’d probably go more for “The Swiss Family Robinson” which was inspired by DeFoe’s novel, while being written to teach the author’s children morals and self reliance. Not that children in this day and age will need some of the lessons that might have been more literal in the early 1900’s, but still. As an adventure book, its fine and good, just I feel there are better materials out there.
Having said that, all things considered I feel like it would be appropriate for children of maybe the 6-12 age range. This is when the child is learning their limits, how far they can take something and at what point they fail. The adventure story reinforces the independence they have already understood between 3-6 (version of this story might be good for that age range as well on the subject of independence.) and can encourage discussion of taking different methods to get to a certain end. What could Crusoe have done differently? How could he have handled the situation with Friday better? I really feel the story could use an update to be truly useful though. It can easily be used as a stepping stone to other adventure novels, like “The Swiss Family Robinson,” “Little House on the Prairie,” “Johnny Tremain” and book series like “The Boxcar Children.”
Winnie the Pooh is definitely excellent for the 3-6 age range. That’s when I recall Pooh being introduced to me. Many of the characters are very much like children themselves. Obviously Christopher Robin is a child, but he takes the lead here. Pooh is also like a child, but one that is almost younger and needs to be taught and explained to by Christopher Robin. The characters are similar to different parts of the child’s own feelings. Pooh is loyal and tries very hard, Rabbit is sort of grumpy, but he means well like a parents, poor Piglet is always frightened and is to be protected. Within these stories, a child could easily take on any role they wish safely. Pooh has such a rich history and it still well known today (I think it is at least!) so I feel like this would be easier to work with. Pooh is a kid friendly, lots of animals that you know and I feel it harkens back to the animal fables with a little less moral basis maybe. You could relate these characters to others from those stories, picking favorites and making suggestions for other characters, like maybe a Fox character or something fun. Children could draw out their favorite scenes or write their own song about their adventures.
Were you perhaps also put off by the racism in this version of "Crusoe?" (BTW: The designation of "Crusoe" as the first novel in English is shaky.)
You spend a LOT of time on this, and I'm curious as to why you didn't hook into the survival-on-a-deserted-island element.
LOL on Pooh being like animal fables with less of a moral message. Thing is, aren't these also Christopher's STUFFED animals? So how about getting young children to write about their adventures with those, especially since most of them have such imaginary adventures?
Sorry for not giving you a librarian prompt on these, but I bet it'd e easy to think of a library display ad/or activity with Pooh.
I'd like your response to the Konigsberg as well--maybe a lbrarian one, linked to the art: the Metropolitan Museum has a website.
BB tends to be "obnoxious" between midnight and 4 A.M.--they do backup--but initial posts in this class are always due on Wednesday.
The Long Rain
So I'm unsure what's going on with the player you posted because it shows up as a black bar, but then I don't use compatible browsers more often than not so maybe that's just me.
This started off so slowly. When the monster/storm came in, it was more interesting. I don't see why it took so long to name Picard. I also wonder the time period when this was written because I have trouble imagining men on Venus that weren't wearing space suits or something. The idea seems so novel today. When they got so excited, I knew something was going to be wrong in the dome. This isn't just sci-fi, it's like the end of the world for these men. Honestly, at the end I was pretty invested, I was raelly worried that he was just dreaming.
I'd rather read to someone than be read to I feel. I used audio books to put myself to sleep when staying in hotels and when I had my eye surgery a couple years back, so this is just what I've gotten used to. I feel like I might have liked this more in writing. I usually love short stories.
How'd you finally get to hear it? Sorry you didn't get full enjoyment, due to your prior experiece with audio books.
The slow start discussion here is interesting, but isn't that Bradbury setting the sci-fi scene?
On the ending--deliberately ambiguous, to leave the reader thinking--as it obviously did all of you.
This was actually written in the 60's--and a lot of that earlier sci fi is rougher than the stuff you've read.
He does set the scene. It almost seemed warlike, but I guess it's more nature vs. man than man vs. man. Or even alien vs. man in a sense, since even the nature of the planet is alien to the men.
Ah, yeah, true. I mean, Asimov seemed to cover his bases when it came to protection and such from his "I, Robot" stories, but I think that was also partly to really put the robots to work as he intended to be seen. I've decided I can manage with this, but a part of me is still blown that these men didn't even wear hats or something covering their heads if they knew they'd be in the rain.
So you played it in Windows Media Player? The most comprehensive work-around is to install and use Mozilla Firefox as your browser.
Interesting thoughts on the conflict here, but you get that the "slow" part is exposition--and setting it up as sci fi.
On the other thing, nice (and careful) contrast to Asimov, but isn't the lack of protection integral to the story? This gets off the sci fi as future elements, but Bradbury published the story in the late 40's, and the situation the characters are in mirrors in certain ways that of soldiers in the Pacific conflict during WWII.
This started off so slowly. When the monster/storm came in, it was more interesting. I don't see why it took so long to name Picard. I also wonder the time period when this was written because I have trouble imagining men on Venus that weren't wearing space suits or something. The idea seems so novel today. When they got so excited, I knew something was going to be wrong in the dome. This isn't just sci-fi, it's like the end of the world for these men. Honestly, at the end I was pretty invested, I was raelly worried that he was just dreaming.
I'd rather read to someone than be read to I feel. I used audio books to put myself to sleep when staying in hotels and when I had my eye surgery a couple years back, so this is just what I've gotten used to. I feel like I might have liked this more in writing. I usually love short stories.
How'd you finally get to hear it? Sorry you didn't get full enjoyment, due to your prior experiece with audio books.
The slow start discussion here is interesting, but isn't that Bradbury setting the sci-fi scene?
On the ending--deliberately ambiguous, to leave the reader thinking--as it obviously did all of you.
This was actually written in the 60's--and a lot of that earlier sci fi is rougher than the stuff you've read.
He does set the scene. It almost seemed warlike, but I guess it's more nature vs. man than man vs. man. Or even alien vs. man in a sense, since even the nature of the planet is alien to the men.
Ah, yeah, true. I mean, Asimov seemed to cover his bases when it came to protection and such from his "I, Robot" stories, but I think that was also partly to really put the robots to work as he intended to be seen. I've decided I can manage with this, but a part of me is still blown that these men didn't even wear hats or something covering their heads if they knew they'd be in the rain.
So you played it in Windows Media Player? The most comprehensive work-around is to install and use Mozilla Firefox as your browser.
Interesting thoughts on the conflict here, but you get that the "slow" part is exposition--and setting it up as sci fi.
On the other thing, nice (and careful) contrast to Asimov, but isn't the lack of protection integral to the story? This gets off the sci fi as future elements, but Bradbury published the story in the late 40's, and the situation the characters are in mirrors in certain ways that of soldiers in the Pacific conflict during WWII.
For what ages do you think his (and McIntyre's) writing is appropriate and why? What do you think children of that age might learn (or how might they otherwise benefit) from reading this material?
The use of snakes was a little creepy, but interesting as I read. These creatures are treated with respect and that's a good example for children. The fact that there were three parents was a little confusing to me, but it's honestly easily glossed over. I feel like this story could help children learn to accept others that are different from themselves as they see more tolerance in the child, Stavin, than in his family. Considering the suggestion of more than just a friendship between Snake and Arevin, I feel like this reflects a stronger rating, but since nothing actually happens and she only noticed his body then that also weighs in.
I feel this could be acceptable for maybe about 10 or 11? I mostly base this off of my own reading as a child though. That was about the age when I started reading series, such as Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game" and Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern. The former could get rather violent at times and the second had light violence and implied sexuality. This is the same area i'd place this story in.
You and Tamara were the only ones to hit on what I see as the main theme of the McIntyre--acceptance of and respect for difference.
The hints of adult material you see here become actuality later in this novel, so I'd go with that stronger rating:-)
Like you, I read sci fi early on--mostly Bradbury and Heinlein at 11 (I've read Card and McCafreey since).
Any thoughts, given your familiarity with the genre, on its benefits in general as the literature of the possible?
Well, sci-fi introduces ideas that because of their position they seem as though they could actually be attainable. Heck, looking back we can see people dreaming of things that we ourselves have since attained or are currently working toward. It sets people to dreaming and thinking. Cellphones, computers, laptops particularly, even robotic endeavors were inspired by science fiction to some degree. The idea of robots was actually around long before the technology could even be properly dreamed of. The very term "robot" was first a term from a play written by Karel Čapek in 1920.
NAILED it--and it's possible that those who read sci fi as kids were inspired by that to go on and create these inventions. Doesn't sci fi, in part, also drive all who dream of and work toward space travel and colonization? And how about sci fi and quantum physics?
Good on the reference Capek, though the IDEA of robots/automatons goes much further back.
[The except from Dreamsnake can be found here.]
The use of snakes was a little creepy, but interesting as I read. These creatures are treated with respect and that's a good example for children. The fact that there were three parents was a little confusing to me, but it's honestly easily glossed over. I feel like this story could help children learn to accept others that are different from themselves as they see more tolerance in the child, Stavin, than in his family. Considering the suggestion of more than just a friendship between Snake and Arevin, I feel like this reflects a stronger rating, but since nothing actually happens and she only noticed his body then that also weighs in.
I feel this could be acceptable for maybe about 10 or 11? I mostly base this off of my own reading as a child though. That was about the age when I started reading series, such as Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game" and Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern. The former could get rather violent at times and the second had light violence and implied sexuality. This is the same area i'd place this story in.
You and Tamara were the only ones to hit on what I see as the main theme of the McIntyre--acceptance of and respect for difference.
The hints of adult material you see here become actuality later in this novel, so I'd go with that stronger rating:-)
Like you, I read sci fi early on--mostly Bradbury and Heinlein at 11 (I've read Card and McCafreey since).
Any thoughts, given your familiarity with the genre, on its benefits in general as the literature of the possible?
Well, sci-fi introduces ideas that because of their position they seem as though they could actually be attainable. Heck, looking back we can see people dreaming of things that we ourselves have since attained or are currently working toward. It sets people to dreaming and thinking. Cellphones, computers, laptops particularly, even robotic endeavors were inspired by science fiction to some degree. The idea of robots was actually around long before the technology could even be properly dreamed of. The very term "robot" was first a term from a play written by Karel Čapek in 1920.
NAILED it--and it's possible that those who read sci fi as kids were inspired by that to go on and create these inventions. Doesn't sci fi, in part, also drive all who dream of and work toward space travel and colonization? And how about sci fi and quantum physics?
Good on the reference Capek, though the IDEA of robots/automatons goes much further back.
[The except from Dreamsnake can be found here.]
Book Banning Sci-Fi
As far as science fiction novels for young adults, I'd want to any young adult I know to read the same book I've recommended to so many people and have even bought copies for it as gifts. Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game". The author has some politics that I don't agree with, but honestly, I've gotten to a point of when I enjoy a book I try not to worry about that. A six year old boy, a Third in a society where you're only allowed two children unless sanctioned by the Government, is taken from his family to be trained as the commander of the world's forces against the Buggers, aliens that had tried to attack the Earth in the past. These are very intelligent children and they learn how to deal with growing up, bullies, situations that are out of their hands with logic and cool minds. I would have children read this and discuss ways they would use to solve the problems that Ender faces, choices that he's made.
This week I'll throw this link at you guys: Scifi Books That Have Been Banned in the 21st Century
I'm always saddened when I see books like The Giver on the list. I mean, it's a good book and it shows us things growing up that we might not have even thought of before. His Dark Materials I see the reason for banning it, but honestly I feel like it could just as easily be taken as an enjoyable story as well. Not child is going to sit there and examine a novel and then start questioning their religion because of it. Frankly, young adulthood is a time when lots of children question well, everything. A book series isn't going to be a deciding factor.
It also disturbs me that you see "reasons for banning" His Dark Materials--though I don't think you meant it that way:-)
Good poit about young adulthood as a time of questioning, but is that the best defense of sci fi that you can come up with
It's more being able to see where they take their ideas from than actually agreeing with their ideas.
Well, as a genre it gives kids a safe place to see strong issues, like racism, that otherwise might be pussy footed around in a regular novel. They see a world that could be, like in The Giver, and it gets them thinking if they want this or if they don't, and what they can do about it. It introduces new ideas that aren't easily introduced.
Thought so--just wanted to make sure--and to get you to clarify:-)
Okay on the rest--but true of many forms of literature. I'm talking about the nature of sci fi as a genre, as the literature of the possible (possible futures, mainly).
This week I'll throw this link at you guys: Scifi Books That Have Been Banned in the 21st Century
I'm always saddened when I see books like The Giver on the list. I mean, it's a good book and it shows us things growing up that we might not have even thought of before. His Dark Materials I see the reason for banning it, but honestly I feel like it could just as easily be taken as an enjoyable story as well. Not child is going to sit there and examine a novel and then start questioning their religion because of it. Frankly, young adulthood is a time when lots of children question well, everything. A book series isn't going to be a deciding factor.
It also disturbs me that you see "reasons for banning" His Dark Materials--though I don't think you meant it that way:-)
Good poit about young adulthood as a time of questioning, but is that the best defense of sci fi that you can come up with
It's more being able to see where they take their ideas from than actually agreeing with their ideas.
Well, as a genre it gives kids a safe place to see strong issues, like racism, that otherwise might be pussy footed around in a regular novel. They see a world that could be, like in The Giver, and it gets them thinking if they want this or if they don't, and what they can do about it. It introduces new ideas that aren't easily introduced.
Thought so--just wanted to make sure--and to get you to clarify:-)
Okay on the rest--but true of many forms of literature. I'm talking about the nature of sci fi as a genre, as the literature of the possible (possible futures, mainly).
Banned Books
50 Banned Books That Every Should Read
I'll say the most shocking reason I've found given for books being banned is that they "show disobedience toward adults." I'm sorry, but isn't that called being a child? Aren't we all disobedient at times? It'd be a sad state if children only acted up because of reading one book where the children acted up. These books have so much to offer. The Golden Compass's protagonist is precocious and willful, but she's bright and she's a loyal friend. Harry Potter goes through so many hardships, from the death of the parents he never knew, to this strange all powerful wizard that pursues him, and the loss of mentors and friends along the way, and though he doesn't always deal well wit it, who would? Though the story is based in a magical realm, his character is the hero on a quest which we all know very well and frankly I've always loved.
I also came across this interesting article about banned fantasy from Vivian Vande Velde!
I haven't actually heard of Vivian Vande Velde, but I love her opinion on this. Parents should certainly be involved instead of just poopooing something they've never touched and have only been told about. When something gets labeled as taboo, it becomes more enticing just as she's said. A good friend of mine told me before that she doesn't want to be some nosy parent, but that she would be reading the novels her children read and I told her there was nothing wrong with that. Honestly, fewer books would be banned if parents and teachers took the time to give an appraising eye instead of just going with a hard of naysayers. I'm going to pull a quote on one of the author's own books here:
This is absolutely true. We've all been there and fantasy is a safe way to experience it. We're disconnected enough to not feel embarrassed or worried, to feel safe still, but we can watch how this character takes a situation and handles it while wondering what we'd do and relate it to our own lives. That's the point of good fiction I feel. To connect. The books that stay with you are the ones you connect best with.
Good links, and not a disjointed rant.
Agreed that more parents should read these books with their kids--that way, they'd see the things you (and Van de Velte) see in them, rather than the things their churches and other conservative advisors tell them. (Good on the disobedient child idiocy here, but these folks object to much more, including fantasy and magic in and of themselves.)
However, the question becomes HOW to get them to do this.
Libraries could play a role here--maybe oanel discussions on these issues.
Back to "Summe Reading" for a second: any ideas on using that story in a library setting--or ideas for libraries better supporting summer reading assignments?
I'll say the most shocking reason I've found given for books being banned is that they "show disobedience toward adults." I'm sorry, but isn't that called being a child? Aren't we all disobedient at times? It'd be a sad state if children only acted up because of reading one book where the children acted up. These books have so much to offer. The Golden Compass's protagonist is precocious and willful, but she's bright and she's a loyal friend. Harry Potter goes through so many hardships, from the death of the parents he never knew, to this strange all powerful wizard that pursues him, and the loss of mentors and friends along the way, and though he doesn't always deal well wit it, who would? Though the story is based in a magical realm, his character is the hero on a quest which we all know very well and frankly I've always loved.
I also came across this interesting article about banned fantasy from Vivian Vande Velde!
I haven't actually heard of Vivian Vande Velde, but I love her opinion on this. Parents should certainly be involved instead of just poopooing something they've never touched and have only been told about. When something gets labeled as taboo, it becomes more enticing just as she's said. A good friend of mine told me before that she doesn't want to be some nosy parent, but that she would be reading the novels her children read and I told her there was nothing wrong with that. Honestly, fewer books would be banned if parents and teachers took the time to give an appraising eye instead of just going with a hard of naysayers. I'm going to pull a quote on one of the author's own books here:
"Dragon's Bait is about a girl who gets accused of something she hasn't done. Just about everyone has found him or herself in this situation at some time or another. I wanted to explore her reactions, I wanted readers to connect with her, but I didn't want people to connect so closely that their own experiences got in the way. So I had her be accused of something I figured the majority of my readers had probably NOT been accused of: being a witch. So they can recognize her problem, they can relate it back in a general way to their own lives, they can judge her actions, but they aren't so caught up in the specifics that they lose track of the fact that being accused of something you didn't do is a universal theme."
This is absolutely true. We've all been there and fantasy is a safe way to experience it. We're disconnected enough to not feel embarrassed or worried, to feel safe still, but we can watch how this character takes a situation and handles it while wondering what we'd do and relate it to our own lives. That's the point of good fiction I feel. To connect. The books that stay with you are the ones you connect best with.
Good links, and not a disjointed rant.
Agreed that more parents should read these books with their kids--that way, they'd see the things you (and Van de Velte) see in them, rather than the things their churches and other conservative advisors tell them. (Good on the disobedient child idiocy here, but these folks object to much more, including fantasy and magic in and of themselves.)
However, the question becomes HOW to get them to do this.
Libraries could play a role here--maybe oanel discussions on these issues.
Back to "Summe Reading" for a second: any ideas on using that story in a library setting--or ideas for libraries better supporting summer reading assignments?
Alice Vs. The Time Warp Trio
How might young readers respond to and benefit from reading Alice in Wonderland and "Summer Reading is Killing Me"?
I think young readers would enjoy the fun of both stories. Alice involves such turn around talking that it could be confusing, but has a fun flow and I think that young readers, children who know the story from movies could really enjoy Alice's adventures and wandering. As I said elsewhere, I don't think teens would take to Alice very much because I feel that they might feel condescended to when they're told Alice's reasoning for thinking things or even just following Alice herself as the girl tries to sound much wiser than she is at times and that could get annoying. Most people can still relate to Alice though in theory. We've all been in positions where we had no idea what was going on and felt like the rest of the world knew exactly what it was about.
With the Time Warp Trio, I think it's more contemporary and would be easier for anyone to get into. The language is plain and easy to flow with. The three boys are easy to relate to yourself or your friends. Even you you aren't the Joe, we all know a Sam and Fred. Kids can read this and feel connected to the characters, but in this particular one they can also meet characters that could draw them to other books in an easy and safe way. The Girl character that combines so many is brave and where this seems like a set of books that young girls could also be interested in though it's aimed at boys, that character is a perfect set up to draw them to other books series and classics as well.
AS Carrie's reply to this suggests, I wish that everyone, like you (though you're already a fantasy fan) got that this stuff IS fun.
I need to remind myself to change that "young readers" to "independent readers." :-)
On the Alice/Scieszka (language) thing, think it's a matter of the Alice books being Victorian? Seen charcters like Alice anywhere else in the fantasy lit? On the language/appeal of the Alice books, might those independent readers (or younger) benefit from the nonsense stuff?
LOL on the paranoid thing here.
Good on why contemporary readers might relate more easily to the Sciezka, and good (as Carrie notes) on the Girl as hero, but what I ike best and would like to hear more about is how the story might draw readers to other books--and how about the humor in this?
I think young readers would enjoy the fun of both stories. Alice involves such turn around talking that it could be confusing, but has a fun flow and I think that young readers, children who know the story from movies could really enjoy Alice's adventures and wandering. As I said elsewhere, I don't think teens would take to Alice very much because I feel that they might feel condescended to when they're told Alice's reasoning for thinking things or even just following Alice herself as the girl tries to sound much wiser than she is at times and that could get annoying. Most people can still relate to Alice though in theory. We've all been in positions where we had no idea what was going on and felt like the rest of the world knew exactly what it was about.
With the Time Warp Trio, I think it's more contemporary and would be easier for anyone to get into. The language is plain and easy to flow with. The three boys are easy to relate to yourself or your friends. Even you you aren't the Joe, we all know a Sam and Fred. Kids can read this and feel connected to the characters, but in this particular one they can also meet characters that could draw them to other books in an easy and safe way. The Girl character that combines so many is brave and where this seems like a set of books that young girls could also be interested in though it's aimed at boys, that character is a perfect set up to draw them to other books series and classics as well.
AS Carrie's reply to this suggests, I wish that everyone, like you (though you're already a fantasy fan) got that this stuff IS fun.
I need to remind myself to change that "young readers" to "independent readers." :-)
On the Alice/Scieszka (language) thing, think it's a matter of the Alice books being Victorian? Seen charcters like Alice anywhere else in the fantasy lit? On the language/appeal of the Alice books, might those independent readers (or younger) benefit from the nonsense stuff?
LOL on the paranoid thing here.
Good on why contemporary readers might relate more easily to the Sciezka, and good (as Carrie notes) on the Girl as hero, but what I ike best and would like to hear more about is how the story might draw readers to other books--and how about the humor in this?
Pretend you're a middle to high school teacher or that (if you don't) you have kids old enough to read these. Which of these two works would you cover in your classroom or your kids? What would be your objectives? Activities?
Young adults in this day and age I don’t think would take well to Alice in Wonderland as it is. Perhaps in another format, but not the original story I feel. The language and attitude toward children reminds me of C.S. Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia with how it addresses the child’s mind. It’s a manner of explaining what the child was thinking or their reasons for acting as they have that I liked as an adult but was always unsure about as a teen because I would think “No, I know this character and I know why they are doing this. Why are you telling me?” But it’s for that sake I lean toward the Time Warp Trio. I’m unsure though whether this is an example of modern children’s thinking or the dumbing down of children’s literature because I just feel that Alice should be introduced to a child when they are younger, maybe elementary school. Also while I feel Alice is classic, I think teens especially tend to like more contemporary novels, just looking at what’s popular today can indicate that.
I also feel that “Summer Reading Is Killing Me” is a great segway into more advanced novels and any reader would get excited when they recognize a character from other readings! They not only involved classic characters, but also the kids from the Wayside School which was a favorite of mine in youth and the concept of “The Girl” blending together for them was sort of hilarious. As a female reader though, I would have liked to see novels that The Girl’s various faces actually came from on that reading list included at the end of the story. As much as I loved to read,m I used to hate summer/assigned reading because I didn’t like being forced to read, but books have become more fun over the years and schools are more open I feel.
On dumbing down: the Alice books appeal to different readers differently at different ages, and a lot of fantasy-loving teems, tweens and younger independent readers were exposed to fantasy through them; fewer since Harry Potter.
Why do you feel "Summer Reading" might lead young readers to read more advanced fiction?
Do you think you might've enjoyed summer reading more had you read this story to prepare for it? Why or why not?
Young adults in this day and age I don’t think would take well to Alice in Wonderland as it is. Perhaps in another format, but not the original story I feel. The language and attitude toward children reminds me of C.S. Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia with how it addresses the child’s mind. It’s a manner of explaining what the child was thinking or their reasons for acting as they have that I liked as an adult but was always unsure about as a teen because I would think “No, I know this character and I know why they are doing this. Why are you telling me?” But it’s for that sake I lean toward the Time Warp Trio. I’m unsure though whether this is an example of modern children’s thinking or the dumbing down of children’s literature because I just feel that Alice should be introduced to a child when they are younger, maybe elementary school. Also while I feel Alice is classic, I think teens especially tend to like more contemporary novels, just looking at what’s popular today can indicate that.
I also feel that “Summer Reading Is Killing Me” is a great segway into more advanced novels and any reader would get excited when they recognize a character from other readings! They not only involved classic characters, but also the kids from the Wayside School which was a favorite of mine in youth and the concept of “The Girl” blending together for them was sort of hilarious. As a female reader though, I would have liked to see novels that The Girl’s various faces actually came from on that reading list included at the end of the story. As much as I loved to read,m I used to hate summer/assigned reading because I didn’t like being forced to read, but books have become more fun over the years and schools are more open I feel.
On dumbing down: the Alice books appeal to different readers differently at different ages, and a lot of fantasy-loving teems, tweens and younger independent readers were exposed to fantasy through them; fewer since Harry Potter.
Why do you feel "Summer Reading" might lead young readers to read more advanced fiction?
Do you think you might've enjoyed summer reading more had you read this story to prepare for it? Why or why not?
Theseus
Which myths would you cover in your classroom or share with your children? Why? What would be your objectives and what activities would you use to reach these objectives?
I’d have no issue with sharing the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur with children, though of course the age of the child would impact which telling I would use. I always felt something shorter and more concise was more drawing to children. Chapter books to be handled in a chapter a sitting and so on mostly because that’s how I still read myself when I have the chance. Limiting my reading time and cutting off at author approved pausing points, cliffhanger or no, is best when you’re busy I’ve always felt, but that’s neither here nor there.
Theseus’s adventure with the Minotaur is exciting and fine for young children. The Minotaur is a little scary maybe, but again that depends on the telling I feel. Godwin’s telling was short and sweet. He didn’t go into great detail, but that leaves more to the imagination at times. The death of Aegean in the end was sad, but that sort of thing does happen in fairytales as well and few bat an eye.
Hawthorne's telling is more interesting and more like a story than a simple summary. Here we actually see the process of Theseus being brave, we see the action as opposed to being told about it. We actually truly meet Ariadne, who in one version I've read in the past he took her with him back home and another he took her, but left her on a nearby island. I rather like this ending instead, it shows her to be a strong female in her own right. I feel this would be the telling I would deliver to children.
Kingsley also told a story. He worked in the story of Icaros (or Icarus) flying too close to the sun with his wax wings that melted and led to his death. The story again runs the same, though here we see Ariadne and Theseus developing feelings for one another and she leaving with him.
I do wish that there had been more variety and less a matter of presenting the same myth told differently though. I know there were still the other two, but there are so many myths out there and not just Greek! I feel that I'd want to promote as much mythology as I could, though I admit that I would mostly use Greek tales to bring in children who have heard or seen references to such things in their shows, movies, and cartoons. I love displays, so maybe during a mythology week, there could be an event where kids could get worksheets with mazes or maybe large maze on a dry erase board they could take up and get a free bookmark for playing. I'd also involve things that would be readily recognizable, such as Hercules and Pegasus.
Agreed that myths in certain versions are as fine as fairy tales to young kids; also agreed that myths are a great way to introduce kids to many cultures, and I'd include these, as well as other Greek myths, during Mythology Week at your library.
I’d have no issue with sharing the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur with children, though of course the age of the child would impact which telling I would use. I always felt something shorter and more concise was more drawing to children. Chapter books to be handled in a chapter a sitting and so on mostly because that’s how I still read myself when I have the chance. Limiting my reading time and cutting off at author approved pausing points, cliffhanger or no, is best when you’re busy I’ve always felt, but that’s neither here nor there.
Theseus’s adventure with the Minotaur is exciting and fine for young children. The Minotaur is a little scary maybe, but again that depends on the telling I feel. Godwin’s telling was short and sweet. He didn’t go into great detail, but that leaves more to the imagination at times. The death of Aegean in the end was sad, but that sort of thing does happen in fairytales as well and few bat an eye.
Hawthorne's telling is more interesting and more like a story than a simple summary. Here we actually see the process of Theseus being brave, we see the action as opposed to being told about it. We actually truly meet Ariadne, who in one version I've read in the past he took her with him back home and another he took her, but left her on a nearby island. I rather like this ending instead, it shows her to be a strong female in her own right. I feel this would be the telling I would deliver to children.
Kingsley also told a story. He worked in the story of Icaros (or Icarus) flying too close to the sun with his wax wings that melted and led to his death. The story again runs the same, though here we see Ariadne and Theseus developing feelings for one another and she leaving with him.
I do wish that there had been more variety and less a matter of presenting the same myth told differently though. I know there were still the other two, but there are so many myths out there and not just Greek! I feel that I'd want to promote as much mythology as I could, though I admit that I would mostly use Greek tales to bring in children who have heard or seen references to such things in their shows, movies, and cartoons. I love displays, so maybe during a mythology week, there could be an event where kids could get worksheets with mazes or maybe large maze on a dry erase board they could take up and get a free bookmark for playing. I'd also involve things that would be readily recognizable, such as Hercules and Pegasus.
Agreed that myths in certain versions are as fine as fairy tales to young kids; also agreed that myths are a great way to introduce kids to many cultures, and I'd include these, as well as other Greek myths, during Mythology Week at your library.
Legends
To which of these or other legends would you expose your students or children? Why? What would be your objectives and what activities would you use to reach these objectives?
Legends are really wide spread, even if we don't always call something a legend. Maybe because I'm American, but I didn't realize that Robin Hood and King Arthur were actually considered legends. It makes good sense, just not something I had previously thought of.
My personal favorite was always King Arthur and the various versions of it. I feel like there are so many different re-tellings that almost everyone could find a version they like, adult and children. While "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" is good, I feel like I'd rather share something like "The Sword and the Stone" to children because Arthur is still a child and isn't yet king until he pulls the sword from the stone. And yeah, technically I'm working off of the movie but I know there is a book of it.
I'd love to have a big display like a castle to hold the books with a stone with a sword in it in front of it. Of course, all fake. Then have a big poster or easel with paper where kids could write down something they'd like to decree if their were suddenly king or queen.
Nice idea for a library display on Arhurian literature--and maybe on all those fantasy works based on it.
The Sword in the Stone is a section in my favorite retelling of the Arthurian legends--T.H. White's The Once and Future King. Might have done this last semester, but I REALLY recommend that.
You shou;d also recall the discussion of the SArturian material in 243--it IS all legend, and one of England's founding myths.
Legends are really wide spread, even if we don't always call something a legend. Maybe because I'm American, but I didn't realize that Robin Hood and King Arthur were actually considered legends. It makes good sense, just not something I had previously thought of.
My personal favorite was always King Arthur and the various versions of it. I feel like there are so many different re-tellings that almost everyone could find a version they like, adult and children. While "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" is good, I feel like I'd rather share something like "The Sword and the Stone" to children because Arthur is still a child and isn't yet king until he pulls the sword from the stone. And yeah, technically I'm working off of the movie but I know there is a book of it.
I'd love to have a big display like a castle to hold the books with a stone with a sword in it in front of it. Of course, all fake. Then have a big poster or easel with paper where kids could write down something they'd like to decree if their were suddenly king or queen.
Nice idea for a library display on Arhurian literature--and maybe on all those fantasy works based on it.
The Sword in the Stone is a section in my favorite retelling of the Arthurian legends--T.H. White's The Once and Future King. Might have done this last semester, but I REALLY recommend that.
You shou;d also recall the discussion of the SArturian material in 243--it IS all legend, and one of England's founding myths.
From the text:
Do you interpret the whole and then the parts, or the parts and then the whole? And if the process is sequential, what determines the sequence? Where do you look first? What do you see first? How do you construct the meaning of the picture? (Actually, one might substitute "the child" for "you" here, IF you know how a child might see your picture or can get a child to answer these questions.)
Also: What are the schemes of color and/or of light and dark in your picture? How about layout: how things and people are positioned? How about arrangement of people and objects by shape and size?
This video is of a little girl reading my favorite picture book, "Madeline" by Ludwig Bemelmans out loud. She can be difficult to understand and she gets a little loud at certain points, but there are also subtitles. I don't know the little girl, but I figured this would be good. The note for it said she had it memorized, which is more noticeable at sometimes than others. I found myself remembering a lot of the lines myself.
I'd present the parts and then want it to be taken as a whole after the fact. You can't rush a child and each page has a different rich image on it so go along with the text beneath, so each page should be taken as its own. I'd say picture first, it draws the eye, though hopefully soon after the text and than maybe revisit and talk about the pictures. This is me, of course. I do have a niece and nephew, but not regular access to them. Remembering what I used to do, the pictures always drew my attention first and from past experiences with my nephew, Tyee also likes to jump to pictures first.
The thing about Madeline books is the repetition. You knew whatever was going to happen, there would be the "twelve little girls in two straight lines. The smallest one was Madeline" And we would follow this brave little girl that would say "Pooh-Pooh" to tigers and frighten poor Miss Clavel like crazy! They almost always started the same way, so you could sit back and enjoy the art as well.
As the pictures go, there are two main types. The first we see is much like the cover, outdoor scenes with Paris landmarks that show the girls in their two straight lines. The illustration style reminds me of old paintings, I can't pinpoint by whom. The second type of image is mostly with indoor scenes, times where we need to pay attention to the actions of the characters (especially Madeline) so the background is a plain yellow, much like the yellow of the dresses the little girls all wear. Probably one of the most interesting things I noticed revisiting this is how the little girls' lines only seem to go wrong when the page is about Madeline, though not always, it did happen very often.
Thanks for this--I read this as a child, so it brings up memories for me, too!
On the parts vs. whole thing, I meant individual pictures rather than books--doing this here will help if you ever serve as a children's librarian, not only sharing books with children, but in choosing and designing posters/online images that will engage small children.
Good, but I'd like more, on the interaction between pictures and text.
The artwork reminds me of early Impressionism.
Interesting on that last remark--do you mean the text or the images?
Do you interpret the whole and then the parts, or the parts and then the whole? And if the process is sequential, what determines the sequence? Where do you look first? What do you see first? How do you construct the meaning of the picture? (Actually, one might substitute "the child" for "you" here, IF you know how a child might see your picture or can get a child to answer these questions.)
Also: What are the schemes of color and/or of light and dark in your picture? How about layout: how things and people are positioned? How about arrangement of people and objects by shape and size?
This video is of a little girl reading my favorite picture book, "Madeline" by Ludwig Bemelmans out loud. She can be difficult to understand and she gets a little loud at certain points, but there are also subtitles. I don't know the little girl, but I figured this would be good. The note for it said she had it memorized, which is more noticeable at sometimes than others. I found myself remembering a lot of the lines myself.
I'd present the parts and then want it to be taken as a whole after the fact. You can't rush a child and each page has a different rich image on it so go along with the text beneath, so each page should be taken as its own. I'd say picture first, it draws the eye, though hopefully soon after the text and than maybe revisit and talk about the pictures. This is me, of course. I do have a niece and nephew, but not regular access to them. Remembering what I used to do, the pictures always drew my attention first and from past experiences with my nephew, Tyee also likes to jump to pictures first.
The thing about Madeline books is the repetition. You knew whatever was going to happen, there would be the "twelve little girls in two straight lines. The smallest one was Madeline" And we would follow this brave little girl that would say "Pooh-Pooh" to tigers and frighten poor Miss Clavel like crazy! They almost always started the same way, so you could sit back and enjoy the art as well.
As the pictures go, there are two main types. The first we see is much like the cover, outdoor scenes with Paris landmarks that show the girls in their two straight lines. The illustration style reminds me of old paintings, I can't pinpoint by whom. The second type of image is mostly with indoor scenes, times where we need to pay attention to the actions of the characters (especially Madeline) so the background is a plain yellow, much like the yellow of the dresses the little girls all wear. Probably one of the most interesting things I noticed revisiting this is how the little girls' lines only seem to go wrong when the page is about Madeline, though not always, it did happen very often.
Thanks for this--I read this as a child, so it brings up memories for me, too!
On the parts vs. whole thing, I meant individual pictures rather than books--doing this here will help if you ever serve as a children's librarian, not only sharing books with children, but in choosing and designing posters/online images that will engage small children.
Good, but I'd like more, on the interaction between pictures and text.
The artwork reminds me of early Impressionism.
Interesting on that last remark--do you mean the text or the images?
Tuesday, May 11, 2010
Plays: Peter Pan
Peter Pan is also a fantasy, so consider how seeing it might affect or benefit a child of a particular age.
How would you present this play in your classroom or share it with your children? What objectives and activities would you associate with the play?
Children soak in everything. With plays, they see another world played out in front of them. I’m a firm believer that plays should be seen and not read. I was fortunate enough that my grandmother agreed with me so I went to see Cats and Annie with her when I was growing up, along with Evita, Taming of the Shrew (in the round! It was amazing!) and plenty others thanks to school programs. I feel Peter Pan is appealing to a good range of kids, and young ones would love to see it performed. With a library setting, I’d have not a fully cast performance, but maybe a shadow puppet or regular puppet show performed for the kids. Kids should always be encouraged to participate and have fun, so were I working in a school program I would gladly help them put on Peter Pan with child actors. I feel that middle school is getting too old or this, but elementary seems good to me. I always loved Peter Pan for being interactive and younger is better here because I feel that children can suspend their belief more easily as they are younger. Whether you believe in fairies or not, it’s difficult to not want to clap for Tink to live when the play is done well. It’s infectious!
The play itself is fun and good. Wendy, John, and Michael and mostly just playing pretend throughout. They learn that though you should remain a child as long as you’re permitted, there is a time to grow up and take up responsibilities. Wendy especially, and young girls through her, finds that the role of mother while fun can be trying and that she really isn’t a mother yet, but she certainly is aging. Peter on the other hand doesn’t learn and he never will. He isn’t unhappy, but he is alone in the end. I'm sad for Peter in the end because other versions he does go back and one I swear he fell in love with Wendy's granddaughter or daughter or something. I found that very sweet.
Like a few (too few:-() others, you has the experience with live theatre that most kids have--it's much more interactive than movies.
Cute idea for the library.
Not sure middle (or even high school) is too old for this--my nephew (in the picture) was in late middle school when he played Peter, and the audience ranged in age from 2 to 70--and all loved it, nit to mention clapping for Tink:-).
Good on the themes.
I recall the version you mention--might it have been the Mary Martin?
It is really hard to beat theatre first hand. Something my wife and I are trying to do is expose our children to such. We know it will only benefit them and help give them an appreciation for something other than movies and tv.
Shadow puppets. Now that is an intersting concept and I do believe the children would love it.
How would you present this play in your classroom or share it with your children? What objectives and activities would you associate with the play?
Children soak in everything. With plays, they see another world played out in front of them. I’m a firm believer that plays should be seen and not read. I was fortunate enough that my grandmother agreed with me so I went to see Cats and Annie with her when I was growing up, along with Evita, Taming of the Shrew (in the round! It was amazing!) and plenty others thanks to school programs. I feel Peter Pan is appealing to a good range of kids, and young ones would love to see it performed. With a library setting, I’d have not a fully cast performance, but maybe a shadow puppet or regular puppet show performed for the kids. Kids should always be encouraged to participate and have fun, so were I working in a school program I would gladly help them put on Peter Pan with child actors. I feel that middle school is getting too old or this, but elementary seems good to me. I always loved Peter Pan for being interactive and younger is better here because I feel that children can suspend their belief more easily as they are younger. Whether you believe in fairies or not, it’s difficult to not want to clap for Tink to live when the play is done well. It’s infectious!
The play itself is fun and good. Wendy, John, and Michael and mostly just playing pretend throughout. They learn that though you should remain a child as long as you’re permitted, there is a time to grow up and take up responsibilities. Wendy especially, and young girls through her, finds that the role of mother while fun can be trying and that she really isn’t a mother yet, but she certainly is aging. Peter on the other hand doesn’t learn and he never will. He isn’t unhappy, but he is alone in the end. I'm sad for Peter in the end because other versions he does go back and one I swear he fell in love with Wendy's granddaughter or daughter or something. I found that very sweet.
Like a few (too few:-() others, you has the experience with live theatre that most kids have--it's much more interactive than movies.
Cute idea for the library.
Not sure middle (or even high school) is too old for this--my nephew (in the picture) was in late middle school when he played Peter, and the audience ranged in age from 2 to 70--and all loved it, nit to mention clapping for Tink:-).
Good on the themes.
I recall the version you mention--might it have been the Mary Martin?
It is really hard to beat theatre first hand. Something my wife and I are trying to do is expose our children to such. We know it will only benefit them and help give them an appreciation for something other than movies and tv.
Shadow puppets. Now that is an intersting concept and I do believe the children would love it.
Monday, May 10, 2010
The Convergence of the Twain
"The Convergence of the Twain" is about the event made famous for us in the movie Titanic. Focus on the way the events unfold in the poem, and try to articulate the point the poem makes about it.
This poem is beautifully worded. The style is different, simpler than the other poems we’ve read from Hardy. The image presented is that of the Titanic being almost not savaged as much as artistically and naturally overtaken by the sea, like it was being accepted into this different world. The idea Hardy wants us to see is that even this was supposed to happen. That the moment this ship came into creation, it's companion iceberg was already out there somewhere, waiting.
This poem is beautifully worded. The style is different, simpler than the other poems we’ve read from Hardy. The image presented is that of the Titanic being almost not savaged as much as artistically and naturally overtaken by the sea, like it was being accepted into this different world. The idea Hardy wants us to see is that even this was supposed to happen. That the moment this ship came into creation, it's companion iceberg was already out there somewhere, waiting.
“Well: while was fashioning
This creature of cleaving wing,
The Immanent will that stir and urges everything
Prepared a sinister mate
For her- So gaily great-
A Shape of Ice, for the time far and dissociate.”
The Ruined Maid
"The Ruined Maid" isn't on the Schedule, but I think some might want to respond to it. What is the poem's attitude toward the "ruined" Amelia--"ruined" meaning that she's a prostitute.
The attitude toward prostitution doesn’t seem a bad one. The primary speaker talks about Amelia’s changes for the better, how Amelia dresses more fashionably, speaker properly, even her skin and hands are finer, softer and her attitude is even brighter. The speaker, Amelia’s old friend even comments on how she wishes she could be like Amelia and have these nice things, but Amelia tells her, “My dear- A raw country girl, such as you be,//Cannot quite expect that. You ain’t ruined.” I feel that Amelia doesn’t want the two lives to cross. Her answers are simple, all saying that she’s “ruined” without further discussion. Her friend, the speaker doesn’t seem to quite understand this, only seeing her for her finery. The speaker accepts her and almost seems in awe.
The attitude toward prostitution doesn’t seem a bad one. The primary speaker talks about Amelia’s changes for the better, how Amelia dresses more fashionably, speaker properly, even her skin and hands are finer, softer and her attitude is even brighter. The speaker, Amelia’s old friend even comments on how she wishes she could be like Amelia and have these nice things, but Amelia tells her, “My dear- A raw country girl, such as you be,//Cannot quite expect that. You ain’t ruined.” I feel that Amelia doesn’t want the two lives to cross. Her answers are simple, all saying that she’s “ruined” without further discussion. Her friend, the speaker doesn’t seem to quite understand this, only seeing her for her finery. The speaker accepts her and almost seems in awe.
The Darkling Thrush
As the note to "The Darkling Thrush" points out, the poem was written (or at least dated) on the eve of the 20th century. As with "Neutral Tones," focus in your response to this on the speaker's tone as it is reflected in the imagery, paying particular attention to the description of the thrush (a type of bird).
Here it is winter. Our speaker is leaning on a gate in a forested place, seemingly alone, checking out nature around him. He compares the landscape to the ending century, “The land’s sharp features seemed to be//The Century’s corpse outleant” Which is a scary image, a corpse leaning out of its coffin. Maybe as though it was watching its final moments pass by. The whole night seems to be as lacking in zeal as the speaker, or so he thinks, “And every spirit upon earth//Seemed fervourless as I.” Then comes the thrush. In all this drabness, the thrust is this sudden sort of jolt of joy.
Though the thrush is not a young and fresh creature, but “aged… frail, gaunt, and small” so it doesn’t represent the newness of the coming century. I’d say that his song was the possibility of hope for something new and incredible in the future.
What did you think of the poem?
Here it is winter. Our speaker is leaning on a gate in a forested place, seemingly alone, checking out nature around him. He compares the landscape to the ending century, “The land’s sharp features seemed to be//The Century’s corpse outleant” Which is a scary image, a corpse leaning out of its coffin. Maybe as though it was watching its final moments pass by. The whole night seems to be as lacking in zeal as the speaker, or so he thinks, “And every spirit upon earth//Seemed fervourless as I.” Then comes the thrush. In all this drabness, the thrust is this sudden sort of jolt of joy.
“At once a voice arose among
The bleak twigs overhead
In a full-hearted evensong
Of joy illuminated”
Though the thrush is not a young and fresh creature, but “aged… frail, gaunt, and small” so it doesn’t represent the newness of the coming century. I’d say that his song was the possibility of hope for something new and incredible in the future.
“That I could think there trembled through,
His happy good-night air
Some blessed Hope, whereof he knew
And I was unaware.”
What did you think of the poem?
Neutral Tones
I (and others) find "Neutral Tones" to be the bitterest poem in the English language. Focus in your response to this mainly on the speaker's tone and on how it is reflected in the imagery.
--
At first I thought the term was bittersweet, but no, bitter is fitting with this poem. The speaker is one of a pair, likely lovers considering the final stanza. The speaker is recalling this scene, this lover, though he admits that other happenings have colored the memories since these events.
"Since then, keen lessons that love deceives,
And wrings with wrong, have shaped me
Your face, and the God-curst sun, and a tree,
And a pond edged with grayish leaves."
The poem is set in winter, which can be beautiful, but is not described as such here. Where the sun could have been white like fresh snow or something pleasant, it’s instead “white, as though chidden of God” the grass if “starving sod” the leaves were “from an ash, and gray” which I feel was just to heighten the drabness of this scene. It’s richly drab if that’s anything. Even the way his lover looks at him. “Your eyes on me were as eyes that rove//Over tedious riddles of years ago” Where she is obviously studying him, he gives the image age and a sort of boredom or tedious nature. One would eventually get bored of studying ancient riddles or at least tire of it. Even her smile and grin were remembered foully. Her smile was “the deadest thing//Alive enough to have strength to die” then her grin was “a grin of bitterness thereby//Like an ominous bird a-wing.” One wonders if this was a foul and dark memory before the pair obviously turned out poorly with hatred at least from his side.
--
At first I thought the term was bittersweet, but no, bitter is fitting with this poem. The speaker is one of a pair, likely lovers considering the final stanza. The speaker is recalling this scene, this lover, though he admits that other happenings have colored the memories since these events.
"Since then, keen lessons that love deceives,
And wrings with wrong, have shaped me
Your face, and the God-curst sun, and a tree,
And a pond edged with grayish leaves."
The poem is set in winter, which can be beautiful, but is not described as such here. Where the sun could have been white like fresh snow or something pleasant, it’s instead “white, as though chidden of God” the grass if “starving sod” the leaves were “from an ash, and gray” which I feel was just to heighten the drabness of this scene. It’s richly drab if that’s anything. Even the way his lover looks at him. “Your eyes on me were as eyes that rove//Over tedious riddles of years ago” Where she is obviously studying him, he gives the image age and a sort of boredom or tedious nature. One would eventually get bored of studying ancient riddles or at least tire of it. Even her smile and grin were remembered foully. Her smile was “the deadest thing//Alive enough to have strength to die” then her grin was “a grin of bitterness thereby//Like an ominous bird a-wing.” One wonders if this was a foul and dark memory before the pair obviously turned out poorly with hatred at least from his side.
Hap
In explicating "Hap," focus on the ways in which it represents what I say above about Hardy's view of the world being ruled only by happenstance, chance, and situational irony.
The whole poem is about chance, that being the meaning of its name even. The speaker is unhappy due to some sort of misfortune in chance. In the first stanza, he says that if a “vengeful god” would just tell him that “thy sorrow is [my] ecstacy” that this god might take some joy from the speaker’s own pain, then he could bear the hard, being “Half-eased in that a Powerfuller then I//Had willed and meted me the tears I shed.” Meaning that he could then bear it because it meant that someone had gotten pleasure from his sorrow. However, he then says that this is not so. He doesn’t believe that he has been given his lot by gods, but by time and chance and that “The purblind Doomsters had as readily strown//Blisses about my pilgramage as pain.” Which leads him to believe that his bad times could have just as easily been good times, but for the matter of chance.
What stood out the most for you?
The whole poem is about chance, that being the meaning of its name even. The speaker is unhappy due to some sort of misfortune in chance. In the first stanza, he says that if a “vengeful god” would just tell him that “thy sorrow is [my] ecstacy” that this god might take some joy from the speaker’s own pain, then he could bear the hard, being “Half-eased in that a Powerfuller then I//Had willed and meted me the tears I shed.” Meaning that he could then bear it because it meant that someone had gotten pleasure from his sorrow. However, he then says that this is not so. He doesn’t believe that he has been given his lot by gods, but by time and chance and that “The purblind Doomsters had as readily strown//Blisses about my pilgramage as pain.” Which leads him to believe that his bad times could have just as easily been good times, but for the matter of chance.
What stood out the most for you?
A Room of One's Own: Judith Shakespeare
What does Woolf's story of Judith Shakespeare say about women writers in the Elizabethan era? Throughout history up until Woolf's time?
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Musee des Beaux Arts
"Musee des Beaux Arts" is one of several poems based upon Pieter Brueghel's painting The Fall of Icarus. The other most famous one is by the American poet William Carlos Williams. Auden's speaker here (like those in many of his poems, suave, understated, ironic--here, as often, in spite of the horrors or desolation he describes) begins by describing several other paintings by the Dutch Old Masters in this imaginary Museum of Fine Arts, using what he says of them to lead into the remarks on the Bruegel painting. In responding to this poem, consider how it relates to the painting, but also discuss its broader message about human suffering.
The poem talks about the continuation of life. How it’s only human to continue on toward the next birth instead of simply mourning the pain and suffering of the time, though the younger generation will never appreciate this while they are young. “How, when the aged are reverently, passionately waiting//For the miraculous birth, there always must be//Children who did not specially want it to happen” and how the Dutch masters understood this process well. “About suffering they were never wrong,//The Old Masters: how well they understood//Its human position” Then the speaker concentrates on The Fall of Icarus. The painting is well described and truly, no one is watching the man’s failure. Though his failure was important to him, a situation of life and death that ended in death, it wasn’t important to the average man. “the ploughman may//Have heard the splash, the forsaken cry,//But for him it was not an important failure” There is a ship that likely saw the man fly, but no face shows towards Icarus in the water as they still have their own business. “and the expensive delicate ship that must have seen//Something amazing, a boy falling out of the sky,//Had somewhere to get to and sailed calmly away.” Even the sun only showed on Icarus only because it must. “the sun shone//As it had to on the white legs disappearing into the green//Water” I feel that the speaker is trying to say that suffering is inevitable and we must take it in stride and look forward to the positive things as opposed to the negative. Though the aged were looking forward to the next birth, they could have just as easily been awaiting their own death.
You get hung up on the age thing (and first painiting) in this reading--isnt the poem more about the "human position" of suffering, about how we all, wrapped up in our own lives and concerns, tend to overlook the suffering of others?
The poem talks about the continuation of life. How it’s only human to continue on toward the next birth instead of simply mourning the pain and suffering of the time, though the younger generation will never appreciate this while they are young. “How, when the aged are reverently, passionately waiting//For the miraculous birth, there always must be//Children who did not specially want it to happen” and how the Dutch masters understood this process well. “About suffering they were never wrong,//The Old Masters: how well they understood//Its human position” Then the speaker concentrates on The Fall of Icarus. The painting is well described and truly, no one is watching the man’s failure. Though his failure was important to him, a situation of life and death that ended in death, it wasn’t important to the average man. “the ploughman may//Have heard the splash, the forsaken cry,//But for him it was not an important failure” There is a ship that likely saw the man fly, but no face shows towards Icarus in the water as they still have their own business. “and the expensive delicate ship that must have seen//Something amazing, a boy falling out of the sky,//Had somewhere to get to and sailed calmly away.” Even the sun only showed on Icarus only because it must. “the sun shone//As it had to on the white legs disappearing into the green//Water” I feel that the speaker is trying to say that suffering is inevitable and we must take it in stride and look forward to the positive things as opposed to the negative. Though the aged were looking forward to the next birth, they could have just as easily been awaiting their own death.
You get hung up on the age thing (and first painiting) in this reading--isnt the poem more about the "human position" of suffering, about how we all, wrapped up in our own lives and concerns, tend to overlook the suffering of others?
In Memory of W.B. Yeats
Auden wrote (or finished) "In Memory of W.B. Yeats" shortly after Yeats died as an elegy to Yeats (and it is one of the best 20th century elegies). However, like Yeats' "Under Ben Bulben," it's also a poem about poetry. Consider in your response how the poem addresses BOTH things.
Also, after reading "In Memory of W.B. Yeats," go back to Yeats' "Under Ben Bulben" and see if you see any similarities or hear any echoes between the two poems; if so, note those in your response.
The poem starts off with beautifully crafted imagery. It’s as though the whole world mourns Yeats. “The brooks were frozen, the air-ports almost deserted,//And snow disfigured the public statues;//The mercury sank in the mouth of the dying day” It’s useful to the speaker that this death did happen in winter as it lends itself so easily to a world in mourning. The next part involving the river flowing and the wolves running however, contradicts this. This then suggests that things continued on, outright calling out that his poetry would continue on regardless of Yeats’ death. “The death of the poet was kept from his poems.”
One of the noticeable points that this and “Under Ben Bulben” seem to have in common is the commentary on calling people to the arts, something Yeats had done at other times as well and is likely an homage to him in this piece as well as a continued call.
A man can only do so much in his life, and should reach for greater, something I recall from “Ben Bulben.” The final lines truly call this to mind: “In the prison of his days//Teacher the free man how to praise.”
Good (and funny) on the setting/mood, and good on one of the main echos of "Ben Bulben," but don't both address and give advice to poets?
Doesn't this poem also say other, more subtle things about the poet and his work than that the work lives on, and what do you think of what this poem says of poetry?
Also, after reading "In Memory of W.B. Yeats," go back to Yeats' "Under Ben Bulben" and see if you see any similarities or hear any echoes between the two poems; if so, note those in your response.
The poem starts off with beautifully crafted imagery. It’s as though the whole world mourns Yeats. “The brooks were frozen, the air-ports almost deserted,//And snow disfigured the public statues;//The mercury sank in the mouth of the dying day” It’s useful to the speaker that this death did happen in winter as it lends itself so easily to a world in mourning. The next part involving the river flowing and the wolves running however, contradicts this. This then suggests that things continued on, outright calling out that his poetry would continue on regardless of Yeats’ death. “The death of the poet was kept from his poems.”
One of the noticeable points that this and “Under Ben Bulben” seem to have in common is the commentary on calling people to the arts, something Yeats had done at other times as well and is likely an homage to him in this piece as well as a continued call.
With a farming of a verse
Make a vineyard of the curse,
Sing of human unsuccess
In a rapture of distress
A man can only do so much in his life, and should reach for greater, something I recall from “Ben Bulben.” The final lines truly call this to mind: “In the prison of his days//Teacher the free man how to praise.”
Good (and funny) on the setting/mood, and good on one of the main echos of "Ben Bulben," but don't both address and give advice to poets?
Doesn't this poem also say other, more subtle things about the poet and his work than that the work lives on, and what do you think of what this poem says of poetry?
Fern Hill
In reading "Fern Hill," it might be helpful to keep in mind Wordworth's "We Are Seven" and Hopkins' "Spring and Fall"--for this poem, like those, is about our obliviousness to death in early youth. Focus on how Thomas gets this idea across, paying close attention to the words and images. Also, read this poem ALOUD, and focus too on what makes this unrhymed poem so powerfully poetic.
The poem still had an interesting rhythm to it without the rhyming. I feel like it might relate to their being similar sounds, alliteration, but subtly and the repeated use of certain words. “Trail with daisies and bar’ley’…. And as I was green and care’free’…. Time let me play and ‘be’….” Then there is the repetition of certain words, like green. Green here shows both the green and pleasantness of this scene as well as the naivety that goes with youth. In the end, green is mentioned in relation to death and time, so perhaps there it’s more relatable to the green of eroded brass like on a watch. Golden is also repeated, expressing the joy of youth and the enjoyment of naivety. You can’t be brought down by things you don’t know about. Unlike the other two poems we’ve read, this is the narrator looking back at their youth and seeing it with new eyes. He sees the joy he held, and he says the carefree state. While the others suggest that one day this state will change, for the speaker here it already has.
Decent on the poetics here, but also note the syllable counts in the lines:-)
Decent, too on the green and golden, but on the "tarnish" thing, not--see the last lines.
Great on the different focus/adress of this as compared to the others.
BUT--how does this poem affect you?
The poem still had an interesting rhythm to it without the rhyming. I feel like it might relate to their being similar sounds, alliteration, but subtly and the repeated use of certain words. “Trail with daisies and bar’ley’…. And as I was green and care’free’…. Time let me play and ‘be’….” Then there is the repetition of certain words, like green. Green here shows both the green and pleasantness of this scene as well as the naivety that goes with youth. In the end, green is mentioned in relation to death and time, so perhaps there it’s more relatable to the green of eroded brass like on a watch. Golden is also repeated, expressing the joy of youth and the enjoyment of naivety. You can’t be brought down by things you don’t know about. Unlike the other two poems we’ve read, this is the narrator looking back at their youth and seeing it with new eyes. He sees the joy he held, and he says the carefree state. While the others suggest that one day this state will change, for the speaker here it already has.
Decent on the poetics here, but also note the syllable counts in the lines:-)
Decent, too on the green and golden, but on the "tarnish" thing, not--see the last lines.
Great on the different focus/adress of this as compared to the others.
BUT--how does this poem affect you?
The Force That Through the Green Fuse Drives the Flower
In responding to "The Force That Through the Green Fuse Drives the Flower," discuss how it illustrates what the Editors say on p. 2444: "Thomas saw the workings of biology as a magical transformation producing unity out of diversity, and again and again in his poetry he sought a poetic ritual to celebrate this unity." Also discuss the meaning of the repeated phrase, "And I am dumb to tell."
You can see the fusion easily here. The speaker takes scientific explanations and gives them an almost magical air. He does not say why such a thing is so, just that it is so and it does this. “The force that through the green fuse drives the flower//Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees//Is my destroyer.” This natural force that brings flowers to grow and bloom he equates to the natural forces that age the human body. The concept makes excellent sense, as a plant doesn’t just bloom, it must age first from a seedling. “And I am dumb to…” I feel suggests that the speaker feels almost silly making these suggestions, that such natural things could not be so related to the human body or condition, and yet they are. The final two lines sum this up I feel. “And I am dumb to tell the lover’s tomb//How at my sheet goes the same crooked worm.” Suggesting that the speaker is still aging and already in a sense decaying much like the already dead.
Interesting on the science angle here--definitely 20th-century stuff, but in an almost Biblical tone.
Good on the life force angle, but see my replies to Ash and Erica (and all) on the "I am dumb to tell."
You can see the fusion easily here. The speaker takes scientific explanations and gives them an almost magical air. He does not say why such a thing is so, just that it is so and it does this. “The force that through the green fuse drives the flower//Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees//Is my destroyer.” This natural force that brings flowers to grow and bloom he equates to the natural forces that age the human body. The concept makes excellent sense, as a plant doesn’t just bloom, it must age first from a seedling. “And I am dumb to…” I feel suggests that the speaker feels almost silly making these suggestions, that such natural things could not be so related to the human body or condition, and yet they are. The final two lines sum this up I feel. “And I am dumb to tell the lover’s tomb//How at my sheet goes the same crooked worm.” Suggesting that the speaker is still aging and already in a sense decaying much like the already dead.
Interesting on the science angle here--definitely 20th-century stuff, but in an almost Biblical tone.
Good on the life force angle, but see my replies to Ash and Erica (and all) on the "I am dumb to tell."
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